Category: the Rant Board
Before my entrance intoa training center I was always told, don't go into one, you wont' like it. I never understood what everyone was talking about because i had been to CBVI in chester county, PA and I loved it. But now that i have enter the reach center for the blind in Tupelo Mississippi, I now understand the terrors of the nfb.
The structured discovery I have found limits my learning ability more than anything else. For example, I have never cooked a thing in any kitchen, but if I were to ask the instructor, how do I do this and what happens if this happens? I'd get the response, "I don't know Cody, what do you think would happen?" Other than pissing me off to no end, i'm also wasting time and not learning anything. Having a recipe tossed at me and being told, ok here cook it, is not the way i learn. i learn hands on when people are showing what to do and giving me advice on what not to do. But that isn't how the nfb rolls. They say that you need to be the most independs as possible and that you shouldn't let your blindness stop you. So I can jump out of an air plane and sky dive, but if a friend of a friend of mine decides to use his tongue to click when he walks without using a cane or a dog, that is just considered denying your blindness. And what, sky diving isn't something you sightees do? Walking without a cane if that person so chooses to is not something sightees do? Hm, quite contradictory if you ask me.
But that's not all. Lets talk about the best cane in the world that they sware by. The first day I walked in, I was given a cane, but it wasn't a normal cane, it was a longer than usual, white can with a slippery grip. Now understand that I am a fast walker, well they claim i walk too fast. They claim it is the best becaue:
List of 84556 items
1. the extra length gives you more feed back. No, because when i hit a curb, the side of the cane hits it, not the tip.
2. It gives you more echo. Well unless you have fragile hearing, a rinky dink tip going tink tink tink just doesn't do it for me. I prefer a mushroom tip that actually makes noise.
3. It is lighter weight. Oh, I'm just so sorry you have to hold maybe a few more ounces. Shit, can't have that.
List end
Ok first flaw, when walking, and this stick hits a crack in the side walk, not only does it jam me in the stomach because of the metal tip that gets stuck in every single pebble, crack and pocket of grass, but it also bends and wobbles like an elbo nootle when i do hit those cracks. In other words it flexes like a rubber band. that never happened with my folding real cane. Also I'm supposed to flin this around with my finger tips. Wow, talk about not having a good grip on your cane, but I guess in the summer time your hands are sweating so much and there really is not rubbery grip on the stick that it isn't worth trying to not grip anyway because it'fly out of your hand which it has done many time. The cane itself is fiberglass or plastic one, and have already snapped not only the metal tip off, but snapped the fiberglass so now the stick is about 3 inches shorter. When walking one needs to make sure that no one is coming because they can easily trip some one. Oh and with the sleep shades on, the instructer gets pissed if i trip her. Well sorry, if the cane wasn't so long and if I could see where I'm flinging it perhaps you wouldn't have been tripped. Listen. I'm a good traveler, not the best, but good, but I for one don't like my cane to be grabbed by bushes, bending in on me, jamming me in the stomach, breaking and slippery. Hell, the staff at the center even have admitted many have been slammed in car doors and snapped right in half. Hm, says something about the quality.
And about those sleep shades, shit, dont' get me fuckin started...
Other than that and a few other nit picky things, training is alright. and the nfb will also not recognize any one who is gay or lezbian as a member. So that just sums them up right there. My friend geno walked out before they could kick him out.
one of the things I had to do and am still doing is read the book Freedom for the Blind. It that is not the most complex, confusing, conditioning, opinionated, slanted, biast, politically correct book I have read, then I don't have any damn idea what is then. Since when was blindness an institution and since when the fuck did I become a customer of my disability? and since when did I not accept my blindness? Rather than promoting indpendence, it would make a newly blind person turn around and say forget this shit man, I'm going back to bed, watching tv and eating teddy grams. Oh and I forgot, if you take someone with you when you go somwhere and using sighted guide is not being independent. Oh and if you do something abstract that the nfb didn't approve you are doing something to conver up or deny you rblindness.
All you nfb cronies can keep your convoluted mess of a philosophy but in the end you can't change the world and you need to do what works best for you.
I know nothing about the NFB, but if all of what Farcry is saying is true, the sooner the organisation is disbanded the better.
It seems Farcry has gone there to be taught some living skills, such as how to cook. Giving him a recipe and telling him he has to work everything out isn't providing a service. If that's the amount of effort they're prepared to make, they should tell people to stay at home and wait for a recipe in their inbox or their mail.
If I put my IT training service users in front of a computer and told them to teach themselves, they would not return every week for their IT training because they would get nothing out of the sessions. The trainer should instruct, observe, and where necessary correct Farcry until he can complete the tasks he has been taught.
Who are the NFB to tell people what canes to use? What canes people choose to use is a matter of personal choice. If Farcry wants to use a cane he is familiar with, he should have that option. If he wants to try a new cane, he should have that option too.
Farcry - can you confirm that the NFB has practically ordered you to read Freedom for the Blind? I've never read that book and can therefore not comment on it. Asking sighted people to help you is certainly not denying or covering up your blindness. It sounds to me as if the NFB wants you to be obsessed with your blindness. Sighted people don't obsess over independence. To do so is abnormal.
Farcry - you shouldn't continue to attend the NFB training camp if it is as bad as you say. After you have read this message, you should withdraw yourself from the camp and boycott the NFB for life.
Finally can you tell me if you have encountered any other obstructions at the camp that are nothing to do with visual impairment, such as rules you disagree with?
Well senior, pretty much what I've said is true. I may have said it very bluntly, but it is pretty much true, and I can make a very good educated guess that groups before us have said the same thing. Reading texts like the Freedom for the Blind is part of the curriculum. You are very much right in terms of obsessing over our blindness and being idenpendent that we are really not being independent. They know that I personally will not sure the stick they give me but while in the center they require I use the long white cane. For example, what more makes it difficult is because so many people using the kitchen i don't know where stuff is, so that when I'm looking for something a lot of the time A, i don't know what I"m looking before because I've never seen it before, or it's been moved. We have an hour conversation each month called seminar where we pretty much wine and complain about how sighted people perceive us. But when i bring up the point that the sort of things we do isn't really doing them independently, they start to fight back. for example, when i said no one can skii totally blind independently. They will be given instruction by someone next to them or they've got a headset on, they aren't doing it completely by themselves. But then I was told sarcastically, well then if a sighted person travels somewhere, because they aren't flying the plane they aren't independent? so it clearly went over their heads. The facility is for people who are newly blinded, and are easily conditioned, and not for people like me who are not fit for a center like this. I could give you many examples, but that is the bottom line here.
one other thing I forgot to tend to. As far as rules that i don't agree with, yes. Each night we have to wash dishes by hand, even though we have 2 dish washers, that are never used, at least in the 3 months I've been here, they have never been used. Then they stress over the nutricious stuff and the meals and eetc, but no one wants to sit in the kitchen doing dishes all night, so therefore we rush through dinner. and for those of us like me who cook sometimes at night because it's required, we don't eat anyway until 7 or 8. then they want to give us classes on washing dishes and repeat stuff that we do every day. Once is enough.
So they actually have rules on whether dishes should be washed by hand or using a dishwasher?
I don't know how many NFB members there are out there, but if they have all just accepted these rules for as long as they've been around, remind me to rub my dirty feet on them if I am ever so unfortunate as to visit the place where you do your training. What a load of doormats!
Please don't tell me you're planning on staying there.
some people have no choice if stay or not, it may be some people's only choices.
Rat is wrong, we do have a choice, in fact they told me I can walk out tomorrow if I so choose. and that is exactly what I am going to do. But now I am not an asshole, so I will be so nice as to give them a head up but this will be in january. I'm getting training on something I don't need. Braille, I've learned since i was in kindergarten, computers, shit I build them, cooking I need the right training, mobility I've been doing for 12 years and certainly not under sleep shades, and wood shop is really the only fun class I have, the teacher is cool, and it's laid back. Job place I also don't need because i've already gt a resume, raining and I've had interviewing skills which doesn't mean I don't need them anymore, but I need to focus on school. I'm running into resistance on that note about schools but I'm dealing with it. They seem to think I'm only 19 and can't handle this by myself but have not the slightest clue what my childhood was like so they hvae 0 room to talk.
I had to go to something like that for an evaluation this summer, I was only there for a week but I thought there was a load of nutty stuff like that too. I refused to go back for the actual classes. I don't need them anyways. I had to go for visual service to help me get threw colege. From what I heard from the people who were there, I already know how to do the stuff they were doing and some. I do my own cooking, cleaning and I even pay my own bills. No one helps me do that. How ever I do use transportation to go to the store and then once I am there, the imploies helps me around the store. I at the moment don't have a way to read my mail, however once I get a scanner for colege and soft wear I will be able to read my own mail. I can and will walk to colege, its only half a block away.
I had a nightmare with nfb training centers. i was called a bitch by the councilor of my apartment told i had to do shit my contract from the state between us three my rehab dep the center and myself and they constantly violated it. They generally treated me like shit. i was also in the acb but willing to hear them out. well, fuck that, i dont ever want to be affiliated with the nfb because of the co center for the blind. they drove me away. I am working on getting back in to the acb some day, that may be slow in coming. but yeah the currency thing, contrary to the nfb wanting to be a corperate know it all on blindness say we dont need accessible currencay bullshit. we do. I deal all in cash i want to know what the fuck my money is, and i often dont have a chance to fold my money as i am practically shoved through a checkout line. Not only that, get a debit card, i cant and prepaid you mean pay out the ass and then some cards, not working for me. so yes, the nfb is fucking warped. thats why the acb was formed splitting from the nfb. read your history. they have been this way for a long ass time. so, another thing, the nfb had that big ass stink on the movie blindness put it in people whole bit, i know people who went to see it just of that. and mostly the only ones who woulda saw it well, it was art students and such, not your average person and one blind person's actions do not i repeat do not govern all blind people. and thats like saying one sighted person's actions govern and define all sighted people go fuck yourselves. that shit is out there. thats so much bs. hence why the nfb may die out soon, but the thing is almost all the schools and other places tell parents with blind kids the nfb is there, dont mention the acb and these kids are raised in the nfb. well some are defacting but many are not. so yeah. insanity prevales hopefully not for long.
While I never agree with jennie, she pretty much sums it up right there. When you try to control people, is when you start to run into issues. NFB in general is a nightmare. I hate the canes, the philosophy, the teaching style, and the fact they hate people with different orientations. the entire thing is bs. I should walk in on monday with everything the nfb does not support, a real cane, a macbook, no shades, brailled money, and to top it off, an ACB shirt that says fuck nfb, or better yet an nfb shirt with a big red X through it!
wow, its sad to say the training center stories you've shown show that these centers deviate so much in crucial ways from what the nfb really means.
Its also sad they seem to turn people away because of some of there practices.
I realize I didn't elaberate much in that previous poste. The president of the nfb him self has told me directly That the nfb was founded to encourage freedom, indipendant lifestyles and happyness as a blind individual. He also told me that in his view the nfb should respect peoples choices on canes, dogs and other mobility aidsbecause if it works for them and makes their life better, more power to them.
IN his view the nfb was never ment to be as militant as some of its members have made it out to be and its just one of the things that he would like to change.
I have never gone to a NFB training center, but I have heard all this from people who have gone to one. If the ACB has training centers, would some one who has gone to one tell us about it? I'd like to see the other half of this here. We've heard about teh NFB, now what about ACB?
I'm a member of neither the NFB nor the ACB, but I too have heard some more than a little disturbing stories about the NFB. One that particularly boils my blood is their apparent stance on folding canes. Using a folding cane is just an attempt to hide your blindness? WTF? Where's the logic in that. I mean once the cane comes out of the holster and is unfolded there's the proof right there. And I'm sorry, but if it's a choice between "hiding my blindness" and possibly tripping a bunch of people when my straight cane is knocked over in the corner in which I stood it to keep it out of the way and then someone trips over it and breaks it, then I'll gladly continue to "hide my blindness" if it'll stop hapless sighted folks or other blindies from accidentally hurting themselves.
I am not shure exactly what place I had to go to but what I do know was that they had some craziness going on there. No not everyone there was as nuts as this topic says, but some were. I didn't take any of the classes, I just sat in a room for a week taking IQ test and personality tests for some reason. I wasn't there for extra help, I was there because visual service demanded it before they were willing to help me with anything at all. I do go to a blind support thing here in town. Not only am I the youngest, but they all say that they look up to me because I do so much on my own without help. I guess I got lucky and grew up with a family who refused to baby me. therefor teaching me how to do so much that most blind people don't learn until they have to go to one of these things.
Oh and the blind support thing is just there for us to hang out and talk for a couple of hours. Its really a way for some people to get out and socalise with people. Just about everyone there is old or getting old.
At post 14, yes, I've been told the same thing as well. that not using your cane if one decides to use the clicking of the tongue method to navigate or use a folding cane, is hiding your blindness, or doing obscure things is denying your blindness. But then they say you can do anything you want so don't let your blindness stop you. Well the reality is, you can't do everything. You will always need some help somewhere along the line. Too, if you do manage to use the clicking or do something abstract, you are the super blind. Hell look at the review on Voiceover on the mac, and this is published in the braille monitor. Hm, I wonder how much other stuff is misrepresented. Going from not knowing a whole lot about the nfb and now having a clear idea of what they stand for has driven away, what they call, a customer. If you haven't read freedom for the blind, don't read it. Bunch of garbage. Sure if you can meet these standards, you are free. My, give me a break.
Also I appologize for my terrible english, my eye was bothering me and I couldn't focus very well last night.
Ah yes, I did read that article in the Braille Monitor. And then there was a gentleman who did a podcast on Blind Cool Tech about it. I'm not saying I wouldn't have any trouble at all if I switched to a Mac in terms of getting used to the screen reader but the author of that article was an idiot as far as I'm concerned. He put a whole week into getting ready to write that. Wow! What a highly informed decision!
I happen to work at a training center based on NFB philosophy.
I think what the poster feels almost everyone goes through when they enter training.
The stipulations on the type of cane, classes a person must take, etc while in training are similar to going to college. Blind people have discovered through years and years of experience what makes most of them successful. These are the classes and attitudes that are taught in training.
Its hard to see the reasoning behind all of the things they ask you to do when your in training sometimes, especially at the beginning, but it has worked for thousands fo blind people.
In the book Freedom for the Blind, Jim will answer many of your questions about the use of the cane, sleepshades, etc.
he has answered none of them and as far as I'm concerned none of them make any form of sense. If I want collegel I will attend the university of southern maine. I know what works for me and i don't need to be told or required to use a noodle stick that bends and flexes all over the place that trips people and other things. I see their point of view, but for me it is not practical. I know from experience. And of course you will support them because you work in one, you aren't the client, you are the staff. So your view is moot as far as I'm concerned. Also, it is worth noting that most of those blind folks who are happy are probably newly blinded and who have no clue of any other organization, so you end up brain washing them and they think they are as happy as a pig in shit.
I will only say this. I don't want anyone telling me what works for me just because it's worked for others. There are those that say a blind-sighted marriage don't work. Well, maybe not for some, but it does for me. I'm completely blind and my husband is completely sighted. We've been married for 9.5 years and were engaged for 3 years before that, and we're still very happy together. So, thank you, what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others, and I think I know best what does/will work for me.
Hi, I have never gone to a trainning center, however, I do know that what seems to be the problem here is a reluctance to change. Remember, you are attending a "trainning center" not a workshop on how to become a better traveler, or cook, or Braille reader. There is a program which is being followed.
As for the use of the Long Cane, I can tell you personally, living in a very large and crowded city, the long cane is extremely effective. You will eventually tailor the style in which you use this device to suit your particular needs, but now you are just receiving training on how to use it efficiently.
The use of the smaller and heavier folding canes is not something used to hide your blindness, after all, the NFB does sell telescoping canes which are just as long, lighter and take up much less space.
The reason why your cane keeps getting stuck on cracks is simple, you are not using it properly. Believe me, at times I do not use it properly myself and that's when the cane gets stuck. I have seen totally blind and partially blind users use it very gracefully.
Perhaps you were not aware of the NFB's basic philosophy before signing up for the center, or who ever recommended it to you did not give you the right information so that you may have had an informed decision about attending, and if this is so, I can imagine that the situation you are in is very frustrating: It's almost like you were thrown into the army without notice.
As for NFB not recognizing gay members, well, I have heard similar stories, however I know of members who are gay. I will check and see if this is an actual rule or just hearsay.
In any organization, there will be those members who are extreme, however, NFB is not a militant or extreme organization. It is a very active organization and for some who do not generally take part in any sort of activism, NFB may seem extreme. It is no more extreme than any other organization.
As for differences between NFB and ACB, personally I can tell you that the best way to find them out is by attending a couple of their meetings. For me, NFB suits my personality and political views more than ACB. Again, I reached this conclusion by attending both of these organizations meetings.
Jamesk wrote:
Hi, I want to make something clear.
"The treatment of blind people as described by Farcry is inhumane, abusive and discriminatory. Inhumane because Farcry has the right to choose what cane
to use, and whether or not to wash his dishes by hand or in a dishwasher. abusive because Farcry is dismissed as dependent if he wants to do things differently
to how the NFB wants him to do things. Discriminatory because they wouldn't dare, they would not dare treat sighted people the way they treat Farcry."
He is attending an NFB Training center and is learning a set of predetermined skills, this is like attending an auto mechanic school and complaining that you are not being allowed to use the tools you feel comfortable with in your day to day classes.
These are not horror stories, these seem more like an inability to adjust, and at the very worst, not receiving very good information on sort of training he would receive.
Usually from attending these centers people come out with a greater sense of independence, competence and confidence, and if these are things which the person has already acquired, the centers sharpen those qualities and fills in the gaps which may have been missed.
The fact that the NFB has such a structured and rigid way of teaching demonstrates to me that they aren't an organization worth getting training from. Being blind isn't like being in the army where it can be a life and death matter of weather you know how to do a task in the exact prescribed way. I know several special edd teachers who work with children with a large range of abilities. They don't use the same program for everyone, they customize the instruction based on the child's needs and skill level. If farcry88 has an acceptible level of traveling ability with a normal cain why make him learn another one that he will be less capable with? Washing dishes by hand isn't a life and death skill like loading and firing your weapon is if your a soldier, what's the point in making someone do menial labor when it's clear they have the skill to wash dishes by hand if there dish washer breaks? I could go into more examples but I'm watching football.
OK Sure wrote:
(sigh) this NFB crap again. I dislike both the NFB and ACB. I mean, please just live life. I don’t agree on too much of the zone’s opinion’s anyways.
I am extremely capable, Most blind people look up to me, hell, most sighted people do too. I am pretty out there with things, what most ACB or NFB member would call “not friendly to the blind” Hell, it’s called success and you see me living well, yeah? I don’t care who you are, but I don’t think it’s all right for anyone to be in these groups.
I am only admired by both blind and sited, because I am away from all that.
As an NFB member, I have never heard of anyone talk badly about using sighted guides, guide dogs, or what cane they use.
I understand that while in training, there needs to be some conformity with the style of canes used. I don't think there will be excamunicating of patrons that choose to use other canes or guide dogs after they're done with their training and living on their own.
Open your mind about what you can learn from this experience and stop picking it apart. Although you might not need as much, if any, training in some of these aspects of blindness, focus more on the other things that are taught.
I don't use one of their canes. I have tried them, but like the one that I use. Folding or telescoping canes are useful for places that have more tight quarters, like restaurants and movie theatres.
There are many course books at college campuses that teach Calculus, but each school requires a particular one.
Learn what you can learn, then make your own decision. I see state and national leaders, past and present, that use dog guides, sighted guides (sighted wives make great ones), there are short, tall, fat, thin, old, and young blind people out there. There is no one size fits all.
Learn what you can, from who you can. Be yourself, and you'll be fine.
Thom
It sounds like there is a one-size-fits-all approach in the NFB's training facilities.
People who already know what works for them should be taught how to get the most out of what they use. If a trainer thinks they may benefit from other equipment, the trainer should offer the service user the opportunity to try using the equipment. The service user should then have the final decision. The NFB should not be imposing any equipment or training methods on service users.
Farcry says he was given some instructions on how to do something and expected to teach himself. He went there to be taught. If he wanted to teach himself he could have done so in his own kitchen. The NFB doesn't take into account the fact that people learn in different ways. Many people will wish for the trainer to instruct them as they go a long, then gradually reduce the amount of instruction until they no longer need instructing.
If any of the NFB's staff came to my organisation with the attitude described by Farcry, they would be dismissed straight away! The sighted volunteers who I have recruited had never worked with blind people prior to working for my organisation, and they had no experience of blind people. Still they know that people should be treated as individuals. They teach the service users at their own pace, and make the learning experience as user-friendly for each service user as possible. We don't decide which voices they have on their speech software, or which keyboards they must use. The service users are able to decide that for themselves. That's how it should be. Personalised learning respects the individuality of each service user.
We would apply the wsame philosophy to teaching living skills if we were awarded a contract and given the facilities to do that.
First off, yes, a one size fits all description is pretty much what it is. The telescopic canes are the most annoying PITA things I've seen, because they constantly colapse on you in the most dire of situation, e.g. crossing a street. If I needed sharpening of my skills, I'd seek my blind friend Geno, which I will be doing here shortly because I'm just not getting any value out of this program.
This whole mechanics thing makes no sense. It's like using a computer/there are more than 1 way to do things. HM, might explain for the shitty review of the mac one of your NFB cronies did.
Lol, to post 24
I belong to no organization, or should I say, an organized blind movement. Lol! That is the dumbest thing i ever heard. While reading tfreedom for the newly blinded to my instructer, my blood pressure raises and I have to stop reading because I get pissed. And that is exactly the term he uses in the book, an organized blind movement. Well hell, they sure as hell don't support the ACB, so it's a general term to imply the nfb. It is very rigid, and to say that I'm not using my white noodle stick properly is crazy bs. I've got 12 years of cane travel. I like using a real cane, one that can be customized. So tell me, how many children use these straight white sticks? none! I have only seen those who use WCIB canes.
If we use the dish washer at night, we need to be sure the dishes get put away at 9, but no one wants to stay in the kitchen so it is implied we do them by hands. They bitch about being sanitary but give us no sope for our rooms and tell us to wear gloves. For our final meal, we need to shop, cook for and serve, and clean up a sit down dinner for 6 to 8 people, while I do all the work. The idea is that, you can do it all under sleep shades. Shit man, I've adapted thus far and i've had better vision, it will slowly keep decreasing, and I did not know it would have been this bad. I have never liked the nfb, even when I did not know much about them, just from the stories I've read and the sides they and the ACB had taken for example the braille or different sized money. Seems simple to me, but nooooooooooo we have to be captain moron and go to the nfb training center. And yes, as I said, if I folded up my cane, I'm either hiding or denying my blindness. Then those who love the nfb when they run into an issue with someone stand there for 15 minutes explaining to a person why the cane is not called a stick. hell, even I do it. The entire thing is just so stupid. If I'm forced to do something most likely I'm not going to do it. I feel sorry for those who are newly blinded and are conned to going to one of these places they are perfect victims for brainwash because they know nothing else. I was told that in a buffet environment I would not use a cane. Then one of the other clients told me that I obviously didn't have good cane skills then. i said ok whatever. Even though he went blind from diabetis and was only there for 2 months, and 2 months is all he had of cane travel and I had 12 years. Come on now, think practical. I'm going to need to have someone there to tell me what food is there, might as well have them help me load my plate. But then I said, well what happens if you are using that stick of yours that is extra extra long, and someone trips. the reply I got was, well, thats the sighted persons fault, because they shold see. So I said, well, sightees aren't always going to be on the look out for blind folks, and as much as that cane get scratched, dinged, and as skinny as it is, people will not notice it, and if they do, do they know what it means. A cane, generally means one is criple. Then, that also means one has that much more to carry back to the table with them. Hell no! I want to use my hands, both of them to carry my plat and drink. Try carrying a cane, and a try full of shit in one hand at a Burger king. Isn't going to happen, unless you have excellent one hand strength which I don't. Put the damn cane down and get your food and if you are with someone use their elbo. Oh, but an elbo isn't always going to be available. yeah so what, then I'll use my cane, big fuckin deal. Oh, but you need to slow down because you are using that cane wrong or that is why it keeps getting stuck. Oh, I'm using it wrong. ok. hmmmm, well that never seemed to happen before with my folding cane. I could go on for hours. I don't want years of experience of getting into a cab, spending 5 minutes trying not to get the damn thing to snap in half, while wedging it between 2 seats or a seat and the door. Then, if other people have to get in, they need to get in on the other side and if there are 2 people or more in there well then that is a diturbance, or more of an embarrassment. Fold the damn thing up and be done with it. If the nfb is so great, why not make better canes. I guess thats why they give them away for free on their site, they know they are made shitty. We have to use the stick every time we travel in the building, even though I can see enough and the building is nothing more than a long hallway, and if caught with your shades up it is a write up. Oh and also the center won't buy me anything no equipment for school because I told them I'd be leaving to go to maine for college. So they said nope, even though I haven't given them a date or even a confirmation of when I'm leaving. The head counselor is a bitch anyway. She tells us that it is a workplace and we need to get along and not to get an aditude with people, but yet she continues to get an aditude with me when i talk to her. And the only reason I chose this center is because it was closer and I didn't want to drive 3 hours as aposed to 15 minutes. But, I will be leaving soon.
What are you going to do?
From the moment you read this post, if you haven't done so already, disregard the cane they've given you and use your own from now on.
The sooner you get out of there the better. You know where the door is and it is time for you to go home.
From reading your most recent post, I get the impression that the NFB tells you what kind of meal you are to have. What you eat and when you eat should be a matter of personal choice.
It is not a workplace. No workplace would restrict its employees as much as you are restricted.
As to my being staff and not a studnet, I went through training at an NFB training center long before I became staff at one.
I then worked at a variety of jobs before being hired to teach Braille at a center that operates on the NFB's model of structured discovery.
For anyone's that looking for training, go with an open mind, realize that you'll be stretched by doing things you think you can't or that sometimes don't always seem clear to you at the moment, and work hard.
As far as the cane is concerned, you can use whatever cane you want to wehn you leave training.
As far as the buffet or Burger King is concerned, I and lots of ppl I know carry trays and drinks while using canes as a routine thing just like anyone else would.
Lastly, I'm curious, why did you decide to attend training in the first place?
If you have such great cane travel skills, etc, why go anywhere.
See, that's why I would probably be kicked out of an NFB's training center if I ever chose to attend. I've used the canes they favor in their training before. I'll be the first to admit that in no way am I a perfect cane traveller but I'm still surprised the damn swizzle stick didn't snap before I got back to the Commission. I'd probably be kicked out for sticking with my folding cane, which is not only the right length for me but doesn't start to collapse at the most inopportune moments. As for the dishes, I don't mind washing them by hand, although I would use a dishwasher if I had one. But I just can't bring myself to support the NFB because their teaching style is so rigid. I've had teachers who were members of or otherwise associated with the NFB but they at least left things open. They'd try to teach you what worked for them but they wouldn't throw you out of training if you thought up something that worked better for you. I just don't agree with the one-size-fits-all approach to training since that doesn't even work inn the sighted world. Just because something has worked for thousands of blind people before you doesn't mean it'll work for you. And usually you don't have to try something for long to find that out. The NFB trainers should take that into account.
I have no interest in debating the merits of NFB philosophy add nauseam. But after reading this topic, I can't help but compare the OP's whining with that of someone signing up for military training and then bitching about the specific training requirements and methods.
That is a stupid comparison. He is asking for help so he can live more independently. He isn't asking for the NFB to impose all sorts of silly restrictions on him like what cane he should use.
Jamesk wrote:
Telescoping canes are god? Please, then, show me how they are. I never liked them, or a straight cane.
Oh hell no. I hated having to use a straight cane in elementary school. Hmmm, my O&M instructor must have been an NFB supporter now that I think back on that. Trying to get him to let me use a folding cane was akin to trying to pull a brick out of a wall after the mortar had begun to well dry. I eventually won out but it was like pulling teeth. And the one time I tried using a telescopic cane it kept collapsing on me. I tried it again four years ago at the Idaho Commission's training center, which has a fair number of less extreme NFB supporters. Again it wasn't pretty. But I totally agree. Whether in training or not clients should have the right to use whatever cane they find comfortable for them. Yeah they should try various ones to make that decision but once they find one that feels right they should be allowed to use that both while they're in training and after they leave. I don't see why one cane hides or denies blindness when another doesn't.
Well unfortunately, humans aren’t textbooks so I must agree.
Also, My question is, why didn’t he check out the specifics before he went?
In his defense, you don't go to somewhere like that expecting to suffer the type of oppression he described. I have never experienced it or witnessed it. This abuse of blind people was something I knew absolutely nothing about before reading this discussion topic.
As I've said, ivdidd not know what I was getting into. It was also the closest training center to whereci live. I also cannot choose my classes it is all or nothing. My mobility skills are just fine.
Posted with my iPhone
perhaps you should research next time.
In his defense, he couldn't have known what it was going to be like. I went to a thing here in NC, not hosted by either organization, just a rehab thing and it was awful. I was basicly dropped off and not told a thing. I was terrified. But anyhoo, I couldn't have known that the room would have no internet or that I'd be the only one under 30 in the whole program. I couldn't have known they'd sit me down with a 370 question career assessment Monday morning.
But organizations like the NFB will have their own way of doing things. I wouldn't go so far as to call it inhumane, but I wouldn't use a straight cane either. I like to be able to fold it out of the way thanks.
And if you have a system that works for you, it is hard to readjust. In my opinion, they shouldn't force a system on you, if yours is working fine. But I'm not there, I've never and will never go to another training center please God, and I'm sorry it's been so bad for you.
That's the point. They do pretty much force their system on you at least while you're in training, and as far as I'm concerned that's completely and totally wrong.
I think I whent to the same one that HauntedReverie
whent to, It was in Reilly and they told me nothing of what to exspect and I was the only one there close to my age except for one or two others who were only there for a week like me.
thats the thing, these centers dont tell you shit! I signed a contract no where in my enrolement meterial did it say btw, we violate contracts and fuck what ya know we are here to officially fuck you over and tell you the past nineteen years of experience of being blind all you have learned is wrong because we do it differently. as for the canes here we are, perfect example.
I live in a town where we have almost a top number of murders in the country. I sometimes travel at night, yes, i carry a knife sometimes. trust me, i almost needed it one night.
but often i just have my cane with me.
ok some dork decides they will mug my ass.
I decide fuck you you aint stealing my shit, so i try to fight him off. so i got my nice nfb approved cane here. i go to hit him with it cause he has my other arm in a hold. the fucking cane snaps across his face. lets switch her up slightly
I am going around with my five foot long folding cane. mugger comes i crack his fucking skull open and beat the shit out of him till he is down, pull out my cell call the cops theycome tend the situation i have a cane to go home with.
with the nfb cane those cops while driving dipshit to jail will have to drive me home.
get my point?
hahahahahahahahaha! Sorry. I laugh only because I've heard crappy stories myself about that place, from people I know that have been there. To the original poster, you're certainly not the only one who would like to rant about it.
Yeah tthe one size fits all things gotta go almost laziness on their part. The training center i went to each classes instructor got to know you showed you your options and the different ways to do things and then worked with you on the one that you felt most comfortable with. And i feel thats the way it should be.
Monkeypusher - I agree, and that's my teaching method.
I've attended a state program whose philosophy is based on the NFB model. I prefer using a longer straight cane not because I was told too, but because I found it worked. I know many people who after training went to get a dog guide, switched to a folding cane, put their canes in corners and use them as a coat hanger. You always have the option to leave. If you choose to stay I hope you can find something positive about your experience. Structured discovery worked for me but like many have said above one size does not fit all. It is freeing being able to go where ever I want with out having to be taught routes or only using sighted guide. These are just my thoughts.
Good luck.
I just wish the NFB would realize that one size does not in fact fit all. It would probably make their training programs and things much less unappealing to more people, not to mention go a long way towards cleaning up the bad reputation they have with a lot of folks.
For anyone who has been to the CBVI in Chester county, PA, what organization were they with, because they were one of the best training centers I've been to.
i'm confused here. can someone educate me?
putting someone in a segregated institution to teach them how to get along in a world with people that are not like them at all teaches what? sighted people do not have to go to a special school to learn how to do the dishes, wash their clothes or whatever. They move out on their own, fall on their faces a few times, and figure it out. At one time, several years ago, I had a boss who was newly divorced. his wife cooked, did the washing and all that stuff. after he left her,the first time he did a laundry, he put a red tee shirt in with his good dresh shirts for work. you know what happened. so he had to go buy ties to match his new pink apparel. If he were blind, he'd be called poorly adjusted, have counseling, and quit his job to go get rehabbed. as it was he got teased, called an idiot by his coworkers, learned from his mistake, and got over himself.
Most young people move on their own, whether sighted or blind, struggle, fail, and eventually succeed. We want to be treated with respect and as thinking beings who are not special. therefore, we must attend segregated schools to learn these skills. my mind has never been able to get around that dicotomy.
Attending a school to learn mobility, get a guide dog, be educated in computer technology or whatever makes sense. sighted people go to those kinds of institutions to learn similar skills like driving, carpentry or whatever. having a special place that is segregated to learn how to be independent has never made sense to me.
For newly blind people, it would seem much more economically and psychologically pheasable to teach in a home environment where everything is familiar. they have their support system nearby and will learn how to integrate in to a community.
You go to a school far away from those you love and learn there. then you have to come home and start all over.
Oh I'm still aghast at the teacher who asked in a cooking class "how would you do this?" They are getting paid to do a job. sitting on their fat ass and having the studend do what they are paid for is lazy, condescending, and pointless.
Besides the whole concept of independence is bogus. all people whether they are blind, deaf, sighted, or whatever need help from someone for something. no one is an oak tree. it stands alone and breaks when the winds of adversity blow hard. willows on the other hand while having their own identity get strength by combining their independence with that of those around them . they grow by the water of experience, and their branches grow and combine with those of their neighbor to make a cohesive group. the strength of the entirety is greater then the stamina of the one. I've tried being the former tree and it didn't work. now I model myself on the latter and am perfectly happy.
Am I making sense?
Absolutely. I've never been to a training center, never been to a convention, and never been to a school for the blind. I struggled my way all through public school and did well. Honestly, I think it has made me a stronger person today. I can cook, clean, get around on my own, and get along with other. So can many others who have also never been to a training center, so what's the point? I can see why maybe those who have another disability besides blindness alone may need to go to something like that, however.
Makes perfect since here too. Hmm, I've attended the KSB for like 3 weeks to learn Windows, and I've attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind to get a dog, but that's it...I've done of the evaluation crap just to jump through agency hoops, but...LOL, I've learned from being a wife and trying and failing. I still remember my first attempt at biscuits...
Not only that but I've seen far too many examples of people abusing those training centers, for wont of a better term. Well definitely the schools for the blind. I have a friend who was adopted from India by an American family who unfrtunately chose to sideline her into the Oregon School for the Blind for all of her formative years, Elementary School, High School, all that. Unfortunately that did far more harm than good. Shyamali was so extremely sheltered that when she graduated from OSB at the age of 21 she had no concept of how life actually worked. So she was totally unprepared for the stress of the "real world." So much so in fact that she made several suicide attempts and had to be put in a group home. I see the potential for that with the NFB, and I totally agree that daily living skills should be taught in the home rather than at some training center far from home. COmputers, guide dog training, O&M are one thing, but living skills are another story. And they definitely need to scrap their one-size-fits-all mentality. As I said before if I were ever to attend an NFB training center I would probably be kicked out within the first few days for refusing to use the telescopic swizzle stick they call a cane.
Regarding Post 19, I think it was, from the training center:
Those methods and suggestions sound far too cult-like for my tastes. In fact, were my teenage daughter were to come home with such propaganda, and she can see, I would be very concerned about the implications.
Exactly. That's another thing I noticed in my friend Shyamali, and to my knowledge she's never been affiliated with the NFB. Of course that could have changed by now. It's been about seven years since I've seen her. And, while my next remark is in no way intended to devalue a college education, I don't like how a lot of those agencies seem to trump a college degree up as being some magical cure-all for unemployment. I mean if it was really that simple we blind folks wouldn't have such a high unemployment rate in the US. Again I'm not attempting to devalue a college education, and in fact I do hope to go back at a later date even if just for personal enrichment. But the way these training centers talk they seem to want to give the impression that all it takes to get a job is a college degree. As much as I hate to say it, from the research I've been able to do it's apparently a proven fact that before the ADA came into effect more blind people, and indeed more disabled people in general, had jobs than in the years since. I think the problem with that though is that it's much too general. There's too much room for employers to find loopholes, say by hiring the absolute minimum number of disabled workers required to be within the law and then not going beyond that, or hiring folks with Down's Syndrome who aren't necessarily likely to complain at the work they're given. Don't get me wrong, people of any sort deserve the chance to make a good living in this world regardless of disability. So I'm not trying to be prejudiced here. And in any case I'm already going way off topic here so I'll shut up now.
as for nfb and cults, i am in total agreement. definitely on the road to cultville if not already arrived.
let's see, they have leaders who excercise a lot of power.
they have books that you must read.
they have indoctrination like tactics.
hmmmmmm.
i should have said that i belong to and hav no interest in joining either organization of the blind.
I never have, even before I found out about some of their more cultlike tendencies.
I also hate the NFB if you do to and you are on face book check out this group. http://m.facebook.com/group.php?r0a4b3ed0&gid=167799613868&refid=27
So, the NFB discriminates against gays, huh? Let's think about this. Blind people are a minority, as are gays. Blind people get discriminated against as much as, if not more so, than gays, as a person can choose when to disclose their sexual orientation. blind people, if they carry a cane or have a guide dog, do not have that luxury. You stand out whether you like itor not. Of course some gay people choose to make their orientation known by their style of dress, etc. but honestly that's not the point of this.
Blind people, as I said, are discriminated against by ignorant people who don't know any better. So, is the NFB not being JUST A BIT hypocritical by practicing discrimination themselves? You would think that as a small group themselves, they would be willing to welcome anyone and help them, and in this day and age there's no excuse for that.
But one size fits all, apparently, in this case I guess there's no exception. The NFB's structure is inflexible, corrupt, and frankly no better than communism. Not all blind people are the same, just as not all sighted people are the same. There are many different learning styles, and because the blind make up such a small number of the population, you would think these centers would have time for individualized instruction. I agree with the statement Turricane made, and I truly love that analogy, however I believe a person can benefit from a training center if their parents are having trouble letting go and showing their child necessary skills to be independent, and especially if they attended a blind school where they were sheltered. Oddly enough, I attended OSB as well, and I'm very sorry to hear about that girl who attempted suicide from the shock of the real world. I recently graduated, and I have to admit I struggle myself because of the attitudes a lot of the people there forced on me. How this relates to the NFB is that if I didn't know anything about their training centers before going, and then went and experienced the blatant cruelty and brainwashing some of you have described, I think that just might push me over the edge.
The sad truth though is that many agencies not affiliated with the NFB are state funded, and are losing their funds, and shutting down as a result. I attended CBVI in Chester County, PA and I was very happy with it. The staff were very supportive, caring, and made me feel I was heading somewhere in life, something I can't say for too many adults I've known in my life. I just wish more training centers with open-minded philosophies existed, and if the NFB goes down like I hope it will, maybe they'll come back to the forefront where they belong.
Finally, I'm thinking about doing some informal interviewing of anyone who would like to talk about the NFB, perhaps putting together a documentary. If you would be interested in talking to me, send me a message here on the zone, or check out the facebook group Jeff posted above. I'm an officer of that group, not to mention I'm his girlfriend, lol, but anyway, this is just an idea. I'm really hoping to get it off the ground though. Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling.
If you are putting together a documentary, I hope you will have more than just those who dislike NFB on it. Otherwise, it's not a documentary, it's propaganda.
I too heard negative things about NFB, mostly about militant styles and just people being out there with their beliefs, however I am glad that that when time came to actually look into these organizations, as they do allot for the community whether you agree with them or not, I had an open mind and was able to decide for myself what was truth and what was rumor.
I am sure there are some militant folk still active in NFB, however, it's very likely that people are refering to rumors which are more than thirty years old, when the two main organizations had split and blah blah blah....
The NFB training philosophy is not one which considers the participants as consumers, or helpless, or much of what people might be used to perceiving them as.
For many people, the centers have worked, for some of course, they will not. But that's not anything abnormal.
Before anyone attends any residential type program, center,situation, one should do lots of research.
These NFB centers are not evil, the NFB is not a one size fits all sort of place.
Do your own research, rumors are fun to comment on and we may get very passionate about them especially if they touch a nerve within us, but in the end, until there is confirmation, they are just rumors.
And there are plenty of gay people in the NFB. So if there is any truth to the "not recognizing alternative lifestyles" thing, it's that there is no separate division set aside for those who would like one. This will probably change if it has not already started to.
Again, Research, research, research....
Hm, research ? The fact alone that so many people agree and say the same thing definiately says loads about the institution. And now from a personal experience and from others, it all adds up. And remember using a folding cane is hiding your blindness lol.
Exactly. I know plenty of people who are affiliated with the organization that have confirmed at least that much. Like I said, that alone is enough to turn me away from the NFB. I'm not denying the good things they've had a hand in, such as the web being more accesible than it might otherwise have been, but as I said I'd probably be kicked out of any of their training centers for refusing to conform to their teaching policies. My system may not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it works for me. But god forbid I should mention that to the NFB folks.
believe me, research is my middle name. My mom was a librarian for heaven sake. my bro and I learned how to use the library when we were teeny tiny tots.
30 years ago, I was a member of NFB. Not any more. 20 years ago, I was involved with ACB. not any more. Both groups have done worthwhile and important work. Both groups should be praised.
My problem is that blindness alond is not a strong enough tie to bring people together. Each of us has so many other characteristics that define us.
In my opinion, the problem with NFB right now is that many of the people who run the centers are in my generation and they attended the schools for the blind. At that time, these institutions taught and hammered in to us conformity at all costs. They had a one size fits all education approach. I can't believe that when I was in school the ratio of house parents to kids was one to 16 or 18. You either strived to be noticed, got trampled or went bananas. In many ways this system made me a stronger person, but I also think it was damaging. we feel most comfortable replicating what we experience. therefore we know from whence the center mentality has arisen.
am i making sense? please let me know what you think.
I agree. And I think that's where my friend Shyamali had so much trouble. She was thrust out of the sheltered atmosphere of the Oregon School for the Blind and into the harsh, nasty real world. THat's what it must have seemed like to her.
Proof of a one-size-fits-all approach:
Ok Sure, yes, I do plan on interviewing people from both sides. You're absolutely right, as much as I hate the NFB and their practices, you can't make a documentary off of a biased opinion. But I feel strongly enough about it that I think something should be done about it. Even if what I do ends up going nowhere, or just within a small group, an amateur endeavor, I think it's time some things about the NFB are exposed. Of course there are going to be supporters of the organization who will justify their actions, but that's to be expected, after all they are still alive and well, and you all have the right to your own opinions. That's another reason why I want to get a view of both sides of the issue whether I agree with it or not. "research", as you say, and that's for damn sure what I'm going to do!
Entering into the lion's den, I'm still not going to discuss NFB specific philosophy even though there have been some off-the-wall comments posted based on nothing more than stereotypes and perceived perceptions passed down from person to person. I actually agree with much of what Turricane wrote and respect her thoughtful contributions in post 52. Much of our learning comes from our daily interactions with the world and people around us; often, the eighteen year old who heads off to college makes quite a few mistakes and goes through a process of learning how to be independent and learn life and street skills. Nothing new with that. Nothing wrong with that. I'm at the same stage right now along with thousands of other students at my university.
If a blind person wants to learn confidence and independent living skills at home or through a state agency for the blind most people are fine with this approach. But where many of you rant against a supposed "one size fits all approach" and even go so far as to call NFB centers abusive and inhuman (?), I don't see a problem with a person desiring to spend time at their training centers.
NFB policies and standards for training are more rigid than you might find at other centers. But to complain about how students are forced into the standards and program and how any type of standards or rigidity would never be remotely imposed upon anyone else not blind is absolute bullshit.
If someone wants to get fit or "ripped", they have countless options. They can buy machines for their houses and use books or friends to motivate and guide them in their workout. By doing so, they'll work at their own pace. Alternatively, they might sign up at a gym and enroll in classes. The classes will probably provide a certain level of "rigidity" in standards that they should strive to meet. Enforcement may vary, but it might work for them. someone might sign up for fitness classes at a school or college. Chances are high that the teacher will require a certain level of fitness each day or stipulate that students eat certain meals at certain times during the day. Students might be forced to buy books which are required. In the program, you keep up with the requirements or fail or drop out. If you fail or drop out, you can go back to learning at your own pace at home.
If you're really motivated, you might join the military or some type of boot camp. Your life will be controlled down to every minuscule detail, from where you sleep and eat to how and what you dress in and how you spend your free time (assuming you have any free time). You can damn well bet there will be standards and rules that you must follow. You already knew this. But you made the choice to come. Follow and learn or get the hell out.
I had to learn calculus last year. I hate calculus. I hated my calculus teacher even more.
The books we were required to buy and work with, the insane number of problems we were "force" to complete every night, the classwork we had to complete, and the specific and rigid guidelines for "showing our work" were daunting and at times overwhelming. In the class which we signed up for, we didn't have a choice of how to learn the material. The teacher certainly didn't come around very often and give individual practice, and to my dismay half the questions some of us asked received loud laughter from the football player at the back of the class. I finished the class. He didn't graduate on time.
There were standards I had to follow. Rules were enforced. I wasn't given much wiggle room in the course; I was expected to do as told. If I didn't like it, I could leave the class and learn the material on my own -- countless other resources existed to learn calculus than enrolling in a class. I was never "forced" to go to class or to finish the requirements, in the same way that you are never "forced" to go to an NFB training center. there is a difference between being forced into the program and following the guidelines and rules of that program. If you attend, you are obligated to abide by the rules and regulations of the program. this is to be expected.
":
People shouldn't have to do their research. I didn't bother researching the college I'm currently studying with before studying with that college and I'm doing fine."
You've got to be kidding. Do you expect everybody to hold your hand with no effort on your part at all? It's up to you to make your decisions and to take control of your situation as best as possible. Nobody's around to wipe your ass If you don't research ahead and get stuck in a sticky situation. Research is the backbone of making an informed decision. Sometimes it may not be possible to research or really "know" what you are getting yourself into as Cala pointed out in post 42. But that's no excuse for not making an informed decision If you have the availability to do so.
If I sign up for classes next semester and get stuck with a horrible teacher, it's probably my fault and I'm not going to try and take the blame off myself. I can search professor ratings; talk to other students in the course; or find a different section.
Again, research is often the backbone of an informed decision. It's your job to research your college, to find a major that fits your personality, and to find a school with strong credibility in your field of study. If you're capable of researching your college and do not and subsequently find yourself stuck in a mess, much of the blame rests on your shoulders. If you're not capable of researching and making an individual decision, you're capable of leaving the course.
If, for whatever reason you really do go to an NFB center with no warning of the program specifics which I find unlikely to happen, leave. You won't be the first nor the last.
":
I have met some people who I consider to be oppressive, but nobody ever told me what cane I had to use."
But someone probably told you what textbooks you had to buy for a course to stay in the course and what time you were expected to be at work in the morning. If you decided to attend boarding school, you would be required to use specific notebooks, pencils, and papers. You wouldn't roll in with your own bed -- you would be assigned one. You would be given a uniform and told to wear it or leave.
Military training compounds require you to use their weapons and specifically issued materials. NFB centers require you to use a certain type of cane. It's completely fine If that's not your style of learning. If not, find the door and leave. What does not work for you has and does work for others.
":
I hope they don't set up a national federation for "sighties". They'll have rules on what cars they can drive, or even how they should travel. Cars may be forbidden. What a joke!
Or not. There was talk at my high school a few years back about banning certain types of cars from the student parking lots for various reasons. the town next to mine has an incredibly long list of ordinances residence must follow; they include the colors you can paint your house and the length and height of the grass in your yard.
If a student wants to spend nine months at an NFB training center, let them. Likewise, If a student feels comfortable learning skills from parents or friends that's their decision. I'm glad to have the choice of either option and have a ton of respect for both teachers and students at NFB centers or other places, blindness or not, who choose to spend time giving or receiving training, skills, and knowledge.
It is impossible for fitness instructors to impose diets on mainstream college students. Not all students go to college cantines, and college cantines are too busy for fitness instructors to enforce their restrictions. At home the students can eat what they want. The fitness instructors cannot force their way into people's houses to find out what they're eating.
I know of no college or university that restricts what cars people can drive. That would never happen in this country.
People who go to the NFB training centres want to learn how to live independently. It is possible to teach them that without demanding that they use certain canes, or that they don't use dishwashers. If their teachers aren't capable of teaching that without imposing such intrusive restrictions on the students, they're not good enough. I could recruit volunteers who have never met visually impaired people before to do a better job and I'm serious!
While it may be good to research, the majority of people just find out what courses are available. They don't look through every policy to see if silly restrictions will be imposed on them.
Some visually impaired people have additional disabilities, or may not have the necessary skills to find information. They should be able to go to their nearest training centre, and be taught how to be independent without having daft restrictions imposed on them.
Learning to live independently is not the same as learning how to be a good soldier. Treating people who come to you to learn living skills, as if they were wanting to fight in Afghanistan is crazy.
Hi, this statement isn't a little disturbing?
"Proof of a one-size-fits-all approach:
Block quote
Research, research, research...
"
Of course you have to research,
Especially if you are going to attend a program in which you will be living in for more than 2 months. You don't need a computer, but you can certainly make phone calls, speak to people who have been there, and try to get as much information as possible. One does not simply go where ever a state counselor or anyone simply tells them to go.
I don't understand why the long cane technique receives so much criticism, it's a technique which you learn at a very specific place, and you are not forced to use it once you are done with the program. However, while you are there, of course you need to learn the same basic technique as everyone else. You don't step into a biology classroom and get a tailor made textbook. You use the one on the syllabus, and you use it because it was determined to be the most effective textbook to date. You may disagree, but you still need to take the class and pass it if you signed up for the course.
Turricane, I also agree that blindness isn't enough to bring people together, but I do think that discrimination, equal opportunities and other social and political issues are definitely enough to do so. I don't have blind friends; I have friends who happen to be blind. There is a large social aspect to organizations like NFB and ACB just because of the small number of people who happen to be blind, and we all happen to somehow be within six degrees of separation (I think that's the phrase) but one simply spends time with the people who have similar interests and personalities, and everyone else are seen as members of the same organization who have a goal in common.
As I said earlier, allot of the negativity comes from 30 or so years ago, and yes, allot of the people are still in high ranking positions, but certainly there is allot more moderation today. There is not that urgency for militancy which there was at that time.
As for the training centers, these are not state sponsored, NFB pays for them and they are run by blind people for blind people. In other words, No one has to attend these centers unless they want to. There will always be those few in the group which don’t benefit from the experience, and yes, there will always be instructors who should be suited for other positions, but this occurs in every sort of situation, the NFB centers are no exception and certainly not exclusively horrific places.
Screaming Turtle, I think that once you start doing your research, you will not find that your initial theory holds up. There are certainly negative things
To be said about every organization and NFB is not above any other. You will find those who treat it negatively and positively like a cult, and you will find those who treat it like an organization. All I can say is that it works for me, and that I have never been put in a compromising situation.
But, this is just me, and I am aware of the negativity which may at times be present with particular members.
If the original poster feels very uncomfortable in the center, perhaps it is not the place for him and he should leave. I would do the same.
I don't agree that learning how to cook, wash clothes, etc should be like learning subjects at school. People go to places like the NFB training centres for help, not to study. What canes they use should be up to them.
If you were in a biology class, they may give you certain manuels, just as NFB may have certain instruction manuels for cooking books. However, they would not tell you which pens to use.
senior,
Research is not a bad thing. Get a grip. You were indeed fortunate to luck in to a good college. How you could go spend someone's hard earned money, be it yours, the parents, or the tax payers, with so little regard is amazing. If I were going to spend four years of life somewhere, I'd certainly want to know if it was good, bad or indiferent. Of paramount importance would be do they have my major, what is the social life like, and what's the ratio of hotties to me. college educations are a privelege and not your right. If you are not goint to do any research, what are you going to major in? If it's partying and screwing, get the heck out of there, go home, do that stuff, and give your place to someone who gives a flip. how you can be in an institution of higher learning and not want to do what you are there for is amazing. knowledge is power. research is the harley that gets you down the road of life. now that I have had a good rant, let me take a good deep cleansing breath.....
oh one more thing. please don't firebomb my house or strangle my cat.
structure and discover are anathemas. discovery comes from creating, exploring, and learning. structure is the opposite. that's doing whatever you need to get a job done and pass a test. frankly, if I'd been told I was going to attend some program that promoted those two competing ideas as its goal, I'd shake my head, and go to the next google topic. Rehab and our peers are not gods. we have the power and the control to drive the ship of our lives. blaming a center for not providing what you wanted because you didn't do advance prep is kind of like crying wolf after the sheep got eaten.
I never said research wasn't good did I? I have nothing against research. I didn't do any to get onto the course I am on. I was begged to go on it. I do however do the necessary research when looking into funding, or other matters of significance to the organisation I volunteer for, and I did research to find new volunteering opportunities I am taking up.
What I was saying was that you shouldn't have to research to find out whether you'll have to use specific canes etc. The only research you should need to do is to find out where to go for independent living skills training.
I also explained that not all visually impaired people have the ability to research, gather or retain information. This may be due to additional disabilities, or other factors. That shouldn't be a barrier to them receiving help to develop skills like cooking and cleaning.
The people who work at NFB and believe that people must use certain canes in order to be independent are clearly not as good at helping visually impaired people asmy worst volunteer, who would never dream of imposing such unnecessary restrictions on the people he was helping.
You picked apart my examples while missing the main point and my overall message entirely. But fine; I'll humor you for a bit.
Senior wrote:
"
It is impossible for fitness instructors to impose diets on mainstream college students. Not all students go to college cantines, and college cantines are too busy for fitness instructors to enforce their restrictions. At home the students can eat what they want. The fitness instructors cannot force their way into people's houses to find out what they're eating."
Assuming we do not agree that students voluntarily attend NFB centers -- or at least have the opportunity to leave If they're uncomfortable, instructors can no more "force" students to do as told than a fitness instructor.
The NFB no more "forces" students to do as told than fitness instructors do. Students at NFB centers are free to leave the residence after hours and travel to any destination they like; they can order food out If they wish and are not generally restricted off-hours. Students are expected during the day to abide by NFB rules, as students in fitness class during the scheduled class hours are expected to abide by rules.
Senior wrote:
"
I know of no college or university that restricts what cars people can drive. That would never happen in this country."
Thank you for dismissing my overall point in favor of slamming one example. For the record, I've already mentioned my school and the proposed policy on cars. Your college might not restrict the type of car you drive, but they can "restrict" and regulate a ton of other things, including when and where you can park, how loud your car radio can be, any type of memorabilia posted on the car [If overly obscene or offensive,] and how one must apply or be approved for parking.
Senior wrote:
"People who go to the NFB training centers want to learn how to live independently. It is possible to teach them that without demanding that they use certain canes, or that they don't use dishwashers."
Yes; it is possible to learn these skills without going to a center. But I've said that before and you apparently didn't read.
Senior wrote:
"If their teachers aren't capable of teaching that without imposing such intrusive restrictions on the students, they're not good enough. I could recruit volunteers who have never met visually impaired people before to do a better job and I'm serious!"
So a teacher is only affective at teaching If they do not impose restrictions on students? These are restrictions specific to NFB training centers, in the same way that almost every other institution, center, or organization has some type of restrictions in some form or another.
The final sentence of your message is bullshit, and you damn well know it. You could not recruit a bum off the street who has never met or interacted with a visually impaired person and have them teach skills to the same degree and standard that people at these centers can, just because you disagree with the center's methods. If you really think a person with no experience with blindness could teach cane travel or Braille to a blind person with the same degree as a professional could, I'm done with this topic.
Senior wrote:
"While it may be good to research, the majority of people just find out what courses are available. They don't look through every policy to see if silly restrictions will be imposed on them."
True. And then they suffer any consequences accordingly.
Senior wrote:
"Some visually impaired people have additional disabilities, or may not have the necessary skills to find information. They should be able to go to their nearest training center, and be taught how to be independent without having daft restrictions imposed on them."
It's becoming increasingly apparent you didn't really read or comprehend any of my message. Correct. Students can choose any training center they wish, local or out of state. If they want NFB training, they can find it; If, for whatever reason, they don't, other options exist.
Senior wrote:
"Learning to live independently is not the same as learning how to be a good soldier. Treating people who come to you to learn living skills, as if they were wanting to fight in Afghanistan is crazy
."
Blindness training can not be physically or even emotionally compared to military training; they are two very different applications. That said, you can make comparisons between how one might train for the army and how one might train at an NFB center. They are not the same, but they both involve commitment, time, rules, regulations, and possible restrictions. At any rate, you are not forced into either (with the exception of a draft) and can acquire many of the same skills without going to a center (blindness skills can be acquired at home; much of the military skills and requirements can be taught outside of the center as well.)
Students have a choice between If -- and how -- to receive training. I suppose I'm glad I have choices and options and there are people (NFB or otherwise) that care enough to teach these skills.
But go ahead. Ignore my main points and Pick apart my examples some more. I really wouldn't expect anything les.
Brice
Hi senior, you stated:
"The people who work at NFB and believe that people must use certain canes in order to be independent are clearly not as good at helping visually impaired
people asmy worst volunteer, who would never dream of imposing such unnecessary restrictions on the people he was helping.
"
No one imposes cane use at these centers, I have heard of people who just show up and do not know what to expect while they are there, and then they are angry that someone is telling them to scrap what they have learned and to try something different. This is unfortunate, I agree. However, NFB is known for supporting the long white cane. As stated above, on off hours, you may do as you wish, you use the cane while in mobility training and during other NFB training. It was stated much earlier in the thread that not everyone in the organization uses them, but certainly many people do and they do find it to be a great advantage over the smaller and heavier canes.
these centers truly strive toward indipendent living and whether you agree that in the long run they are successful at this or not, those who attend the centers, while there, do learn the skills necessary in order to do so.
This is one of the aspects which may frighten some people, the fact that one is expected to achieve at things in ways which quite possibly, might have thought of as almost impossible. It is not easy training, and the methods used at times are meant to take one outside of their comfort zone.
So what happens to a visually impaired person who refuses to conform to the silly cane restrictions, the likes of which you would not encounter anywhere else? What happens if they use their fold down cane? Farcry says that they risk being accused of hiding their blindness? What's all that about. I've never heard anything so rediculous in all my life!
Though people may be able to get training elsewhere, you would expect, that given that the NFB centres are ran by one of the leading organisations for blind people in the US, that they could expect to get the skills they want there, without being given manuells and having to learn without any assistance, and without being told what cane to use.
People who have just gone blind, or who aren't good at finding things out will see that the NFB has a training centre and think "wow, there's a place nearby where I can go to learn how to cook, wash my clothes and clean my house". You know that nobody would be thinking "I wonder if they'll let me use my cane or if they'll insist I use one of theres." That isn't normal. Before Farcry created this topic, I can honestly say I never new people suffered such restrictions as having to use a certain cane, just for wanting to learn how to cook. I never thought anybody would impose restrictions like that on blind people.
I am not against restrictions relative to the course, such as everybody learning how to use ovens on certain days, hobs on other days, grills on other days. That to me is understandable. But telling somebody they have to use a certain cane is totally unreasonable. If Farcry is still in this centre I challenge him to explain why he hasn't left yet despite his complaint at the beginning of this discussion topic.
Yes I could recruit volunteers who have never met blind people before or taught what they are teaching or anything similar, and get them to teach at a very good standard. I didn't just make that up. I have recruited such volunteers, and they have worked to a higher standard than I would have expected. They have surprised me with their ability. They require less training from me than I thought they would, and they are a lot better than I thought they could be.
And no they don't need people to abide by rules on what kcne to use in order to teach them.
Senior,
I agree with you to a point about the research. However, sadly, blind people should research training centers before they go so that they can carefully decide what is right for them and what may not be such a good placement for them. Saying they shouldn't have to is a naive statement, and even though you're right, any institution such as a college or even the military should be taken seriously by the person who's going to attend. That's why it's recommended to take tours of and apply to several colleges, so that you know at least in theory what you're getting yourself into, and if you don't like it, at least you made an informed decision, but have the option to transfer out if you so choose. But what about students at these NFB centers who don't know any other ways of getting the skills they need? What about young people who are struggling for independence from parents who can't nor won't let go? The point I was trying to articulate before but I don't think I expressed very well is that state agencies are in danger of shutting down due to lack of funds, as CBVI did. They used to have a program for blind adults, but were forced to shut down their center about 2 years ago. This to me was a real shame for my own personal reasons, but what I'm afraid of is what if centers not sponsored by the NFB become so few and far between or inaccessible to most that blind people simply go to an NFB center because they have no other choice? Then it could safely be said that their propaganda and outdated tactics were being forced on the students attending, and that, as I said in a previous post, is no better than communism in my mind.
when one enters into the military, I would hope they researched what they were getting themselves into before signing up for such a big responsibility. What goes on in the military is also widely known, so comparing the expectations of it and NFB training centers is a terrible analogy. As I said, there could be several valid reasons why one doesn't know what they're getting themselves into when going to a training center. For example, I had known about some of the NFB's practices such as the sleep shades, the cane, etc. so when I was looking for a training center (as there wasn't one in PA and the ones not affiliated with the NFB were in places such as California and Texas, and I really didn't want to travel that far), I emailed someone at the NFB center in Maryland and politely asked for their policies on such things as sleep shades and whether they were a requirement. I sent an email, got no response, and then called a couple weeks later, got the coordinator's voicemail, left a message, and still never received word back from them. So I guess they're scared of someone who knows what they want and can assert themselves, and knows what they want out of a training center, and for me it's not a one size fits all approach, and I guess they figured that out just from the tone of my letter, but I assure you I wasn't rude nor challenging, just inquiring about their policies and how strictly they were enforced. I think that, as well as many of the other comments on here, sum up their respect for individuality in a nutshell.
When reading the comments left on this thread I noticed that sertent people are making strong judgement of nothing more than HEAR-SAY. Sometimes it is a good idea to RESURTCH or look in to what it is that you are hearing before doing such things.
Sometimes peple don't have an alternative sorce of help and are left with going to one of these programs. Not all people can self teach.
All the organizations can do is help give these people a start. If the people find a better way of doing something, Then good for them! Maybe they will learn something that they otherwise would not have thought of or have knowen about. Most of these people are brot in with little or no experience with being blind and therefore needs a bit of guidance to start them off.
Why reinvent the wheel?
These workers have found a way that works and are sticking to it. Maybe they were starting you off with a base to build on. Then once you get that task down, you are able to move to a different form of completing the task.
Sometimes learning a bit of pationts and listening skills might result in fully understanding what is going on. I believe that those who sits back and watches learns more than those who are abit quick to jump in to have there say or way.
I disagree. Farcry didn't get any help have anything to listen to. He was given some instructions and told to teach himself, even though he went there to be taught.
He wanted to learn mobility and they said "not with that cane". That's not going to help him use the cane he has better is it?
In a normal learning environment, Farcry would have been guided through the task he was being asked to complete. Gradually, the guidance would be reduced and with practice, Farcry would get better. Then Farcry would complete the task on his own. After that they'd move onto the next task with him.
In mobility, they wouldn't care what cane he used. They'd see he wants to use the cane he's using, and they would teach him how to use it better, or how to get to different places using that cane. They may want to recommend their cane so they might ask a simple question like "Have you ever tried our straight canes before?" They'd say the benefits, and offer (that's offer) him the chance to use the straight cane. He could say yes or no. It would be entirely up to him.
Hi Senior, I think that what is going on here is that we are getting confused as to the type of center that NFB provides, and the type of learning environment which those attending the center are provided with.
Yes You are right, giving someone a straight cane might not help that person use their old cane better, but the point of the training is to show people how to use the long white cane.
Asking someone "how do you think you can do this?" when asked for help as in the example above is a common and effective way of showing someone how to think, and not just expect answers. From what I have seen, it is a valid training method.
Allot of the people who attend these centers are not helpless as blind persons, some really don't know how to do much at all, butt much of the training is done to really bring the confidence and independence out in all those who attend. it's not just a learn a few skills and then go home sort of place.
I think you are showing great concern because this type of training is not common and my guess is that you don't see those who attend these places in the same way which the NFB does. That's fine, and very understandable, but we are talking about very different training environments.
I don't think it's right to throw someone into an environment they've had no experience with. For example, if a blind person, as so many of them do, lived a sheltered life and their parents wouldn't let them do things like help cook or clean, they might not know anything about those tasks. Saying "I don't know, what do you think would happen?" would probably frighten the student who is already in a vulnerable position. Rather, they should be gently and slowly guided, as Senior put it, because this strategy builds confidence. There is nothing wrong with asking the student what they think will happen in a given situation, but if they have no experience they should not be automatically expected to jump and do something. For example, I was once asked a bunch of questions, everything from extremely basic household tasks to questions about emergency situations to being asked to identify kitchen utensils for a living skills class. This way the teacher could assess my current level of skill and decide what areas I needed to work on. I think certain people need a certain amount of structure and to feel like yes, they do know something. This really wasn't the case with me, but it was a required class...Blind schools, you gotta love em! But anyway, I really liked that approach, but I'm sure that's something hardcore NFB supporters would scoff at, claiming it was coddling or something like that. Now, of course this approach shouldn't be taken throughout the whole program, that would be ridiculous. But if you're going to stay at a training center for 9 months or a year, I really don't see why they can't spend the beginning of that time (a month? the first 2 weeks? The first few days?...hard to say, each student is different, and that's why each student should go at his or her own pace.) If you just think, sitting there on your high horse, that everyone must be alike and do things alike, it's like you're dropping ice cubes on them. They're going to be shocked, they're going to be hurt, and they're going to be angry.
I used to keep my distance from this whole thing. I didn't like the NFB, especially after the incident I described in my last post, but I was willing to leave well enough alone. But after reading some of the things here, I realize that their approach may work for some people, but does it really, or is it just a matter of convenience? Would these same people have benefitted more from a more informal approach? The NFB claims to have a positive attitude about blindness, but they sure do seem to give off a lot of negative signals. For example, a folding cane hides your blindness, and they take issue with guide dogs? Why? Because it deviates from the norm, THEIR norm that they set themselves? And sleep shades are helpful because visual conditions are often degenerative? In many cases, this is true, but it sure is a negative approach to say. It's like saying, "you're going to lose your remaining sight anyway, so let's get rid of it now." They also advocate that we can't just be average, we have to be great, and make a name for ourselves. We have to climb mountains and be engineers and all sorts of other high-ranking positions to prove our worth to society. I have nothing but respect for people who get to where they are from working hard, but are these the role models young kids should be looking up to? I say yes and no--yes for the obvious fact that at least they're employed, unlike most of the blind population. No because they then think they have to live up to those expectations. Because there aren't many blind people, family might attach an idealized version of such a role model to their child and expect it to come true. Why doesn't the NFB ever show people normal jobs? I could be wrong, maybe they do. But in the couple of discussion panels I've been to, all the people who represented them were highly successful.
But just as there are all kinds of sighted people, there are all kinds of blind people. Their individuality should be allowed to be expressed, not idealized. And that is my main issue with the NFB, and why I feel so passionately about this subject.
As far as sleepshade use during training, they are used to allow the blind studnet to come to realize that with or without vision of any sort, they can be successful in life. Visinon, and the amount of vision one does or does not have, can and will not determine your success in life.
They are a very valid and useful training tool that allows you to learn to trust the other alternative techniques you are learning.
As far as individualizing the training, believe me, centers definitely do that with each student. A core set of skills has tto be learned to make almost any blind person successful in life, though, and that's what the training tries to teach. But along with the skills, its the attitude that you can solve problems and find solutions as a blind person and that your just like everyone else in the world. Your blindness doesn't make you less of a person.
Screaming turtle, Hi, the reason for wearing sleep shades is not because eye conditions degenerate anyway, they are there to provide those with some vision an alternative to doing things by not utilizing that vision and instead concentrating on the task.
Perhaps you might find this link interesting. I looked up structured discovery a couple of minutes ago and found this to be a good description of what it is, and also why the original poster might feel frustrated with the aproach.
http://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm07/bm0704/bm070405.htm
Folding canes are not thought of as tools to hide blindness, however, many people do use them as such. I speak from personal experience. As posted earlier, NFB does sell folding canes, telescoping canes, straight canes....
Let me clarify one thing. I was typing too fast and I kind of missed my point. I believe there's nothing wrong with asking a student what they think will happen in a given situation, say, on the first day of training, but to ask the student and make them do something they've never done before on that same day is not right. That's what I think can cause discomfort or even fear.
They should first ask the student if this is what they want to do. Then eas in to it sloly and at the students pase. Jumping right in to anything different can cause damages espeshaly if the person does not want to do it.
maybe this is off topic, but I'm surious abourt something. is the nfb aghainst guide dogs and why? I would think that if they prize indpendence, they would encourage people to use whatever method enables this to transpire. please educate me. thanks.
NFB has an national association of guide dog users, along with state divisions of the same. The long white cane is just a preferred method of cane use which is taught at the centers and utilized by many members, not a mandatory method.
Honestly that I'm not sure of, but if they are against guide dogs then they're inconsistent about it. I've met a lot of NFB members who own or have owned guide dogs. What I don't understand personally is how anyone could use a folding cane to hide their blindness. True when it's folded it can be put out of sight out of mind, but once the cane comes out it's blatently obvious that the person's blind. So I never did understand that. Unless people fold them up and refuse to use them. And I've known some folks who were totally blind since birth and refused to use the cane even when it was out and in plain sight, so as far as I'm concerned that doesn't matter. As for teaching methods, I stand by my statement that they need to be less structured. Introduce the student to the original method if you will, but if it doesn't become comfortable for them after, say, a few days to a few weeks, try something else until the student finds something that clicks. Their policies might work for a lot of people, granted, but there are a lot that don't. And if, as has been said, the non NFB-run training centers should shut down due to lack of funding, what options that remain need to be ones that are comfortable for those that use them. And if we're talking about a person who's been blind for a long time but just wants to brush up on certain aspects of daily living, whatever they may be, they should not be forced to use a specific tool or brand of tool even while in training, especially if they've long since found a tool that works for them. I found out years ago that aluminum canes, whether straight or folding, didn't work for me because they always seemed to get bent no matter how careful I was with them. But as for guide dogs I'd never heard that the NFB was against them. I'd be interested to know why people think that is. And if it's true it just goes against their supposed mission statement.
*bump*
Thei ice cube comment made me smile, though you forgot one thing dez, they'd be cold as well. Yes, I'm an idiot.
Hahahaha!
i've never understood the folding cane thing either. personally i like them because they can be put out of the way and people won't trip on them. i can understand some concerns because some of the very old folding canes from back in the day were not sensitive at all. owever, they are much better nowadays.
Exactly. I lost count of the times my non-folding cane tipped over on a bus during a sharp turn and hit the bus driver, no matter how I tried to brace it. Sure wouldn't happen with a folding cane.
I have never met blind people who used a folding cane to hide their blindness and until I do, I cannot believe such people exist. But let's assume somebody did want to hide his blindness. What's that got to do with anybody else? Who are we to say how far blind people should go to show sighted people that they are blind? No sighted people have ever gone to the troble of making sure I wasn't under the impression that they were hiding their sight.
All this nonsense about the ideal blind person ought to be stopped. As screaming_turtle said, we are all individuals. Sighted people aren't all the same, so why should blind people be? But I would go further. What has the employment status of other blind people got to do with us? Whether or not blind people have jobs is of no more significance than whether or not sighted people have jobs.
Of course, blindness does limit one's ability when compared to sighted people. I know and accept that. For example, no blind person will ever succeed in independently driving me to the train station.
Blind people having less ability than sighted people doesn't bother me. I don't know why so many blind people are insecure about things like that.
Let me make one thing clear. Going to school to learn a profession is a hell of a lot different than going to a training center in order to learn how to live independently. Living is not a profession you don't get paid for it. As I and others have said, each have their own way of learning and everyone learns differently. I for one learn best if someone shows me what to do. If I wanted to learn on my own I'd have stayed home and done it. I'm at a training center, so I expect that I be trained, that's all I'm saying. If a cooking instructer thinks I should figure everything out on my own that is crazy. How am I supposed to problem solve if I'm working in a situation that I've never been in before and moreover have no knowledge about. At that point it is then only a random guess, and that is not accomplishing anything. I'd rather be told I'm doing things safely and right rather than guessing if it was ok and questioning myself. I like to get things done and put them to rest once done. The type of cane used at a cenbter should not matter. The technique, if safety is a concern, should be addressed, yes, but the cane has no factor in this issue. If a blind person learns braille in kindergarten, like myself, then why should they be in a room with a teacher reading about freedom for douches if that person clearly does not care? Teaching and helping become independent is one thing, but if that client, or customer as they refer to me as, is forced to read a book of rules and regs about the organization, then that is going overboard.
Then why don't you leave? That is a valid question. If it's a choice between going to a closer center and having to endure that, which I in no way condone, or making a bit more of a trip to a center you're more comfortable with I'd make the trip.
HI Senior, How does one justify this statement?
"What has the employment status of other blind people got to do with us? Whether or not blind people
have jobs is of no more significance than whether or not sighted people have jobs."
Or this statement:
"Blind people having less ability than sighted people doesn't bother me. I don't know why so many blind people are insecure about things like that."
Perhaps not all blind people feel that they are less able than their sighted peers.
farcry88
, I understand your frustration, the method of traing you are receiving is one which is meant to lead you to the right answers by your own trials and errors, not by simply directing, and for some people who are used to or find taking directions easier when learning than problem
solving, this might be very frustrating.
Your instructor is not supposed to let you figure things out on your own, they are supposed to lead you to the proper conclusion, steering you in the right direction, but only after you have made an attempt at doing the problem solving, and making sure you do not feel discouraged by your wrong attempts. It's possible that your instructor and you are just not a good match.
If you are very good at Braille, than breaze through the class. Pick up what you can, and sharpen your skills if you need to.
If this place is not a good fit for you however, go, do not spend your time doing something of no value.
But I would suggest that if you decide to stay, take into consideration the type of environment you are in, and enjoy yourself. Do not fight the learning process, embrace it or just leave.
And yes, I do understand that for some people, for many diferent reasons, leaving the center is not an immediate choice. I hope this is not the case for you.
Just read the first post so far and huge huge hugs to you Senior. Wow! That was so eloquent and true. So you went to Chester too? How long ago? Anyway, they're definitely closed-minded and just as you describe, from the brief encounters I've had with them. Everyone learns differently and one mould can never fit all students. Also, this idea of having to act and to be a certain way and of never being able to ask sighted people for assistance is insane. These people started the move to make American paper currency accessible and then recanted it saying that it makes blind people look less independent. So getting conned or having to ask someone to read our money or being forced to fold it into certain ways makes us look great right? I've even heard some of them say that if a driver lets you sit at the front of the bus, you should say no cause he/she's discriminating. No wonder some sighted people think we're nasty.
lol I meant farcry88 in the original post. I accidentally hit the tab button and went to the next one without realising. But Senior's right. Hope you don't stay there.
OK now I'm gonna step on toes but ask the question anyway: Why not hide one's blindness if one wants? I mean, if you're in a situation and you happen not to show it, who cares?
I worked with a gay guy on a server team for awhile, and while he didn't go out of his way to claim to like girls, I didn't know he was gay for six months.
And then? once that came out, several others got on his case for having hidden it. But he wasn't hiding, in the coming out sense, it just wasn't the number one thing.
So if I as a programmer work on a project, communicating over Skype, and the person on the other end doesn't know I'm blind - provided I'm not claiming to be able to do the graphic art - well who cares? Would they ultimately find out? Sure, probably, once I ask what might be an obvious question to a sighted person, and of course tell them the reason.
With a lot of people working online, many people don't expose their race, sexual orientation, religious belief, or whatever simply so they can get to the meat of the matter, the work.
I realize I may have just made enemies on here by saying this stuff, and no I'm not ashamed of being blind, nor do I think one should pretend they can see if they can't. All I'm saying is, haven't we all heard "Put your best foot forward?"
On a job, perhaps you have a strength technically, or in other lines of work something else, but you're weak in one area, say databases or whatever. While you would be honest about that weakness or perceived weakness if asked, why reveal it if it's not necessary? Does a woman named Pat have to make sure in an email that I know she's a woman, and (if this is the case), not a trans?
People always try and put their best foot forward. They always have, and probably always will.
A cane is a tool. If you fold it up and stash it in your jacket pocket, that's no more hiding your blindness then when you put away your laptop; you're hiding your computer literacy.
Nice to see others on here referring to theirs as their stick; I always have but didn't know anyone else blind who had.
Bombs away I guess, I need a beer ...
You haven't made enemies with me. I don't go around saying, Hi, my name is and I'm blind. That's just ridiculous. I don't answer the phone and feel it necessary to inform everyone I speak to that I'm blind. That's not hiding my blindness. That's just considering it my right to choose when to share something private about myself.
The NFB started a movement to make paper money accesible and then abandoned it? WTF? As for me, I don't mind folding my money a certain way. I happen to have one of those note tellers, although granted it doesn't read the newer bills. And if I don't have it on me, which is very often the case since it is slightly cumbersome even though portable, I'll usually have one of my folks identify it so I can fold it a certain way. Byt as to Farcry I hope you don't stay there since their methods are obviously not working for you. Goodness knows I wouldn't if it came to that. But I can't believe some of the riddiculous views this organization has. I had an itinarate teacher in High School who told me, though she could possibly have been kidding, that she'd never speak to me again if I joined the NFB. She believed they were too militant. Yeah, standing up for our rights is a good thing but that should be an individual's responsibility, hopefully without resort to the courts as much as possible. It's off topic I know but has anyone heard about the blind gamer who's suing Sony for not making an online game accessible?
This hiding your blindness thing is ridiculous. My lack of vision is part of who I am. It is not my entire identity.
90% of my work is done via email and phone. My clients are spread across the entire country. They don't know or care that I'm blind. They just want me to take care of their business in an accurate and timely manner.
A few weeks ago, we had a national conference. I met many of the individuals I've only known electronically. My blindness was not treated as a big deal by them because it wasn't by me. I was surprised because many of these folk in person are entirely different than the mental picture I had of them. For example this one lady writes like an old serious professional woman. In reality she's cute, funny, and young.
Exactly. I just don't see the logic.
What I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet, or maybe it has and I've just missed it in the passed 100 or so posts, but it's possible that these rigid restrictions are a result of management decisions of that particular center. They could very possibly have nothing to do with NFB core philosophy.
Like I've said I've had the opportunity to talk to people from a great many NFB centers and they all basically confirm most if not all of it. I've known plenty of NFB supporters who don't agree with their teaching methods. In fact I had a friend who really began to question his support, financial or otherwise, of the NFB after experiencing firsthand what their training can be like. I'm not denying the good things the NFB or the ACB have done but let's face it. I'd probably be kicked out of an NFB training center for refusing to use a straight cane or even a telescopic one even during training. That's what I don't agree with. As I said before if someone who, like me, has been blind all their life but wants to brush up on living skills for whatever reason, and especially if one of the desired areas of study was mobility, they should not be forced to abandon a tool that's served them well for most of their lives, even if it is just for training. Trying it out temporarily maybe, but they shouldn't be forced like that. I've had more than enough experience with straight canes and even telescopic ones to know they don't work for me at all. As I said before even an aluminum folding cane didn't work because they ALWAYS got bent sooner or later however carefully I handled them. But I definitely disagree completely with the one-size-fits-all mentality that the NFB seems to have adopted when it comes to training. It's like a lot of the voc rehab agencies for the blind here in the states having contracts with Freedom Scientific, who don't necessarily let their clients know that there are other options available if, for whatever reason, the first one doesn't work.
I do have a question, though. Why go to a residential center in the first place? I guess it makes sense if you can't get any help locally from State Services but I know even here in Oregon, there's the Independent Living Resources Ilr, which help blind and other disabled folks in the local area. Then they don't have !stop school, work or whatever, and go be isolated in an environment like that. Especially for someone newly blind, I should think it would be easier for them to learn in the context of their own neighborhood, house or whatever. There's even programs now for dog guide users where they learn without going away for weeks on end, and they learn within the context of their environment. I'm not a trainer, though, but as a programmer I know if I can remote into someone's machine, I can make a custom fix in a lot less time and a lot more applicable to them. I realize this is different and, as I said I'm not an instructor, but I would question the isolation aspect of such a thing. That, and I would think the person struggling would have to learn all over again once they got home, at least mobility. I mean I have a good sense of direction, but I know friends and family who can see who would have a terri# time with it if they couldn't, because their sense of direction is really poor. But perhaps one of you can educate the ignorant here.
Farcry I can't believe you're still in the centre. I certainly wouldn't be. I would have walked out by now. Get a relative or friend to show you how to cook. Some blind people have successfully learned that way. No doubt some people don't believe that but...
OK Sure wrote:
Senior, I agree with you. If one uses the term loosely enough, one could say there's a "blind community," but it doesn't even go so far as does, say, the software development -munity, or birding -munity, based upon interestss. Unless, of course, one's actual interest is blindness or helping blind people, which presumably some have, or they wouldn't be providers of Braille, mobility or other instruction. I find the term "sightie" galling, just as I find the whole idea that there's a "they" galling. Sounds too much like a conspiracy theory, but more !the point, that that would put me at enmity with my own dauter. As a father, that could be consid"ered abusive behavior. It's especially bad when one group cries discrimination while placing the same on others. The blind aren't alone in this: feminists ofthe "man-bashing" type -- typified in the 1980s, the modern religious extremists who want their own views but just can't stand the fact the universe consists of a like more than just them. Even during the Protestant Reformation, protestants who had previously been burned by Catholics proceeded !burn Catholics themselves. Have you ever seen a political vegan, wanting restaurants to provide vegan food, and then proceed to complain vociferously when someone else is eating meat in their presence? So your point on the alleged -munity is well taken.
However, I disagree on the issue of employment. I don't know about being passionate, but certainly anything that can be done to assist in the process is well worth doing. You're right, a blind person can't go down to 711 and 7rab a job. That's not a problem until they lose theirs and need some money quickly. I had that experience several years ago, and because of that, if I could provide a fix so others didn't experience the same, I would. It is well worth taking such challenges into account. In the 1990's out here, we had the spotted owl / logging situation, and what few on either side (outside this area) knew was that when loggers lost their jobs, it was REALLY DIFFICULT for them to find work. It required a lot of intense retraining programs, not unlike what some of you have described, either as a teacher or student on these boards. It wasn't coddling or special interest for people to take an active interest in ensuring these guys could get work. They, like me several years ago, had families, debts, bills, etc. This wasn't about "finding yourself" or "career exploration," it was about getting their lives back together after a tragic event. I sympathized then; I empathize now.
I believe I've rambled enough here.
To clarify, I'm not saying blind people can't work, just that there are limitations as to what they can do.
Oddly enough Brian, I posted a topic on that sony article just this morning.
Yeah I saw that.
everyone has limitations on what they can do. ours are just different because we are blind. additionally every blind person has their own strengths and weaknesses. if i were to get an accounting job, the company for whom I worked would have to file chapter 11 very quickly. my math abilities suck big time. this has nothing to do with blindness and everything to do with my inability to do math.
Well they never ask me to do any PR or marketing ... lol ... but they will send me bugs to fix.
And, I'm generally quite happy with that; that and new stuff to come up with, but I'm glad not to have to do the markety thing; so you're right of course.
Personally, and it probably has to do with what I experienced, I only wish I / we could create a situation where blind folks between jobs could make a little money, as do sighted folks. I wasn't having a pity party when it happened to me, but I sure wished that I could run down the street and work at Fred Meyers or something jus to tide me over. That, to me, is a big big problem. It is unique to us although possible with other groups as well, I'm sure.
Well technically we could do it, but the jobs available to us would be unsuitable in the extreme. Menial stuff that sighted people think would be easy or safe. And that, I hate to say, is what the voc rehab system here in Twin Falls seems to be trying to get me. And I'm not really in any financial position to move.
Ok I've red this entire topic, And Farcry, if I was in your position right now, I would just say fuck it (excuse the language) and not go back from this day forward. I atended the Carroll center for the blind in Newton Ma, and for an indipendent living program, and I found their staff to be helpfull. They incuraged me to ask questions, even invite my GF or to spend the day with me and watch how my progress is going. I am not a member of the NFB, Nor have I experienced that kind of abues. But that is totally not right.Farcry do you live their in like a dorm? Or do you commute?
From the sounds of things I'd guess he lived there, otherwise it'd probably be much easier to quit. He could just say I'm done and not go back. It's like I've said. If it was a choice between a longer trip to and from but a comfortable training environment and saving the miles but being forced into rigid, inflexible policies I'd make the longer trip. That inflexibility I think is where my real gripe with the NFB lies.
I'm the same as turricane, I'd be out of their, so fast it wouldn't even be funny.
Me too, but at least I'll never make the mistake of going to one. I'm sorry that others did have to go through it and don't feel they have any other choice. But I'd be getting the hell out of there myself.
well nfb's flawed in many ways.. someting tells me there's corporate greed (aka money interest) there. If you must have an open mind, your instructor must too. A good instructor should be able to teach anyone with any kindof cane. Likewise, a good musician plays all genres... this gets them more potential customers. Asking a person the same question they asked before does nothing but make people think they've been mocked or it just shows the instructor's calling you stupid--it shows lack of desire to teach from the instructor.. you must make things interesting and motivating!
I wanted to point out that, perhaps not all of these centers are funded by the state, but the one in Texas is. There is no alternative training center.
I spent three weeks at the one in Austin, and had many of the same dehumanizing experiences already described. People who do best in these places are newly blind, as I am not. I greatly resented being told what cane to use, and pulled out my own folding cane after hours, even though I was scolded like a naughty child for it. I also have a guide dog. I had the strong impression that they would have preferred me not to have brought her! If I had a penny for every time some snide condescending, nosy person asked me "Where's your cane?"
...
The O&M instructor insisted that I leave my dog behind for lessons. This was unacceptable! This dog is an integral part of how I travel, and with her, I feel safest.
I was hit by a car several years ago while crossing a street. I do travel independently now, but am still quite anxious around traffic. I do not feel that being forced to go out in 90 plus degree heat and deal with it every single afternoon would be helpful! I tried more than once to explain, talked to several people, but didn't feel as if anyone listened, or cared to understand.
Ultimately, I had to leave because I could not cope with that, every day. Once a week might have been okay, but they were unwilling to negotiate any kind of change.
I regret the things I might have benefitted from learning, there: more computer related things, the woodworking and sewing would have been terrific. I know of no other way to learn that. I went to this place because there was no other choice. I was interested in getting into the BEP program, and they require you to go through this basic training. So there's my career option gone.
The indignities never seemed to stop. There was no time when I felt I could relax, get a break from being questioned, corrected, etc. You had to check in and out, each time you left the building, even if you were only stepping outside with the dog.
I am nearly 40, and have been totally blind for most of my life. I have decent orientation skills. This woman, who didn't even bother to introduce herself, came up to me and proceeded to pry my hand off the elbow of a good friend who I was walking sighted guide with. She assumed, incorrectly, that I was using my friend to get around because I didn't know where I was. I was stunned! This woman didn't even know my name, nor anything about me. You don't go up to a stranger and put your hands on them! Would a sighted person be treated this way? (Yes, I do know that sighted people deal with ridiculous situations, too...)
Also, I have been reading Braille since the age of 3. I love it, and use it regularly, so thought it was absurd to be forced to take a Braille class. i read quickly, I don't see that any improvement is necessary. It was a supreme waste of time.
People of the opposite sex weren't permitted to visit others; rooms. The guide dog school has done away with this rule. Surely, adults can be expected to act as such, and to respect others? It didn't matter if you didn't have a roommate, either. Admittedly, this one was a minor annoyance to me, but still...
Thanks for letting me vent.
Even if the person was helping you get around, the person should not have forced you to let go. As long as you and the person guiding you were comfortable with the arrangement, it had nothing to do with anybody else. It shouldn't matter to anybody whether you are guided by other people or by your dog or cane.
To me, the part about them basically telling you that having your dog was a bad thing kind of made me go "what?" I don't think that's right. So your telling us that the cane is the only way to go? We can't use any help whatsoever apart from that? It just doesn't seem right. Cody, Dez, at Ideal, didn't Eesha have her dog with her, or had she not gotten it yet? I know one of the computer teachers did have one with her.
oh, about the ones in Texas... and probably in other states...
Texas was put under grate presure to reform its program at its center starting oh, probably 7 to 10 years ago. So, rather than look at there program, evaluate its strengths and weeknesses and make changes, they overhalled there moddle which was shit and employed the NFB style training with out actually understanding the philosiphy behind it or ways to handle it. So, now you have people trying to emulate something they don't understand and mixing in there own rules, views and such.
I've seen this center before with a group of blind people on a tour, I wasn't pleased with it. I actually know a few really good people that work there but over all its filled with biggeted, narominded and bitter people.
the problem comes in when state run programs get mandated reform and try to be lazy about it. Using programs they don't truely understand and trying to bring in teaching ideals and stratigies they don't know how to effectively use.
That's a familiar scenario all over.
Mike, Eesha didn't have her dog when she was at Ideal, and even if she did, the people we worked with then had enough common sense not to interfere with something like that. As for the person who said people of the opposite sex weren't allowed in each others' rooms, that's just ridiculous. It's one thing if you're dealing with people under the age of 18, because then you have parental approval to worry about. But adults should have enough maturity to handle something as simple as that, and if they can't, that's nobody's fault but their own. It's no reflection on the center, their teaching style or their program in general. This just makes me wonder if so many people in the NFB continue to push this degrading and outdated philosophy because they have insecurities about being blind themselves? I know the NFB is all about independence, but some of their methods seem almost like a cover-up, or a quest to try and make themselves look better than sighted people, not to mention most of the time people act so aggressively when they're really trying to make themselves look better than they are.
Well as for the opposite sex thing, Portland, Oregon's Summer Work Experience Program has the same policy for their dorm. Apparently it's because a girl got pregnant during one of their programs and her paents sued the Commission and won. The same thing apparently happened in Boise's Assessment and Training Center.
Hmmm, well, such a policy shouldn't apply if nothing like that has happened at a particular center. It also shouldn't apply say 5 or 10 years after said incident, because not everybody is the same.
Yeah, but everybody's so afraid of getting sued these days, and everybody else is so sue-happy.
That's true. What a sad way to live. But I guess that's just how it is.
Yeah. I'm sure we've all heard about the woman who sued the MacDonald's after she spilled a cup of hot coffee between her legs. That's why everything has the most outrageous warning labels on it. The makers are afraid someone's actually going to do whatever it says...or maybe somebody actually did. Do not use this blow dryer in the shower.
at post 118 yes I live in a dorm. Seems as even on the list I'm on agrees with my email i sent out last night. Well, I'm thinking about maybe pulling out a week early. AT this point I have 3 weeks after thanks giving to pack my stuff up and leave so I'm not rushed.
If it was me I'd have pulled out absolutely as soon as I learned about their riddiculous policies.
As would I.
They're treating you that way and you're not rushed? You're like one of those weak women who gets battered by her husband every night and knows leaving him is the sensible thing to do, but for reasons best known to herself, she'll stay and take another beating.
That was my x fiance exactly. Even when she got a restraining order, assuming she wasn't lying about that as well, it made allowances for him to contact her since her daughter, who isn't his biologically, is now living with him. That's what this NFB situation reminds me of.
I have theories on why people will stay in such a bad situation as this, but I've probably already covered them in earlier posts to this thread. But the main one I see is a sense of helplessness because choices of training centers are limited. Senior, that was an excellent analogy. Let's hope that some people read this board before making the mistake of going to one of those centers, and explore other options when they can. Bryan, that's true, people will sue anybody for any reason these days just to say they got a little extra money in their pockets, and to me that's totally not the right way to go. Taking someone's money doesn't solve any problems, it just proves that you're stooping to their petty level.
That's true. And I've noticed that Voc Rehab people conveniently don't always tell their clients about ALL the options available to them. I've noticed this same tactic when it comes to teaching their clients to use Screen Readers. It's always JAWS, which may work for some but certainly not for everyone. But they don't mention Window-Eyes, Hal or any other options that might be out there.
Yeah, it's the fact that the most popular is viewed by most professionals and people in general as the best. They may be afraid to explore other options or simply don't know about them. That's why the NFB is the way they are, cause old habits die hard. They've been this way for so long that they feel it's their way or the highway, and their tactics and methods should work for everyone because they're the most popular choice as far as training centers go.
Yes, but aren't the NFB's people the ones who make the most noise for their training centers? I had heard about the aACB before, but know nothing about them, but I know a lot about the NFB as cody has been telling me about it.
That's what I'm saying. They make the strongest case, so that's what state rehab agencies are the most likely to fund, because they know the most about those centers. Now I was lucky in that my BVS counselor doesn't like the NFB, so he would do a little digging if I said I wanted to go to a training center. He even warned me about the NFB in the past, which is why I got to go to CBVI.
we need a resource that will facilitate the finding of, learning about, compareing of, reviewing/raiting of and general comunication about training centers for the blind in all there aspects. I think something like this would raise awairness, drive compotition and prevent people from getting them selves into situations they don't wish to be in.
Note that when I talk of something like this i'm not includeing blind schools" as "training centers as these are spasificly state or national (sometimes private) instutions of delivering a general education, not for provideing blindness training spasificly.
That's a really good idea. And Mike, I think the reason not as much is said about the ACB is because they don't stir up near as much controversy as the NFB does. They prefer a more laid-back approach. Still, I've never heard of any specific ACB training centers either, so I know almost nothing about their philosophy except they keep a low profile.
I've just caught up on the posts here and have to agree about Freedom Scientific. The agencies act as if no other screenreader exists aside from JFW and no other products help us aside from the ones made by Freedom Scientific. I only got a BrailleNote for college because I emphasised that I wanted one. Same with Hal. They did mention WindowEyes as an option but it wasn't as strongly supported as JFW. I don't like being compared to other blind people in so far as "well, there are alot of blind people who do this" or "if they could do it so could you" etc. I am not just a blind person and I don't represent everyone who is blind. But it's also important to remember that I am, among other things, a blind person. So naturally, I will face some of the same challenges as other blind people. So to say that I don't care at all about what my peers are going through would be ridiculous. I too have trouble finding a job, getting around, mingling with people (not because I'm shy but because I can't see those around me) and so on. Bryan, what kinds of "menial stuff" are you referring to? Do you mean like call centre nonsense? They try to push that at the Job Clubs in New Jersey too. I don't understand the NFB's problem with folding canes. Why do they think that everyone must use a rigid cane? And why are they against guide dogs? I actually went to two of their meetings (just to see the technology mind you) and there were guide dog users there. The NFB was also very rude to my mother when she tried to explain that I was having problems in maths in school. One person was like "well, my daughter cooks with algebra." Anyway, I'd assume they're against gps systems too. It seems, in fact, that they're against us making any kind of real advances. If we did, they'd have nothing to complain about and that would ruin their little party I think. If anyone tried to pry my hand from a friend's arm I'd quickly break said hand or punch her in the face. I don't take kindly to strangers coming up and touching me. Bravo Senior for the battered women comment. I can't stand those women who come on talk shows etc. with broken arms or bruised faces or worse, who's husbands or boyfriends landed them in the hospital, who go "oh, but i love him. He'll change." Bullshit! If he treats you like that from the beginning, he's gonna continue to do that no matter what. Granted, the NFB isn't physically hurting anyone, but the mental abuse is still there. I'd leave too. striker, I love the idea of a review resource! I wonder if anyone here would be willing to set up a website so that people can leave comments on the various centres. I don't know about any ACB centres either, though I do know that the AFB has one in Denville NJ called the Diamond Spring Lodge. They're really strapped for funds these days but they're a truly amazing place. They used to have a wonderful summer program, which was a mixture of recreational activities and learning. But they've done away with that and now only have the classes during the winter and a little week-long thing called Holidays at the Lodge. They're also not residential. Still, if anyone's from NJ, they're a very good option. And their mobility instructor is one of the best I've ever met in my life.
I'd be willing to doo the work to creat the sight. It could be easily done in a wiki format but I'd rather a full sight. Only problem is surver space and the getting a websight name registered and all that. as for NFB being against guide dogs and cains that fold, I personally havent incountered much of this except from the extremests of the organization. Sadly though, extremests seem to make the moste noise in every organization and everyone has them...
Several issues that are commonly stressed over about the NFB are quite old roomers. or are braught on by people who are bitter in general, not representing there organization in the best light. then these roomers are spread threw a small comunity of blind people, half or much more of which doesn't really bother to doo there research and perpetuates things that they have hurd that could be based on one persons views, not the true views of the organization. they actually have an offiliate of guide dog users so the fact they are against guide dogs is that much more easily proven false.
I just people would really look into things and think about what they are saying and hearing about any blindness organization before they start running there mouths like waterhoses. It only serves to cause more drama, frustration, misinformation and more inability for people to make the choices that best effect them.
Oh no, not call center stuff. I haven't even gotten that option. What I'm talking about are things like washing tables or stuffing envelopes, both jobs I've had in the past. I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to do something like that but only so long as there was a chance of moving up in the ranks, so to speak, to a job that's more suited to my abilities. Unfortunately it's been my experience that a blind person who accepts a menial job like that often runs a very real risk of never advancing. And I can't forget my bell ringing job for The Salvation Army four years ago. Standing outside a grocery store for six hours a day freezing my keester off ringing a bell. I like the cause but it certainly wasn't worth the chunk they took out of my SSI. And now I'm working with a rehab agency that to my knowledge isn't affiliated with the NFB (and nor is my counselor at the Commission for the Blind here as far as I know), and that's what they seem to be pushing. Washing tables or maybe stuffing envelopes. I'm about ready to move. I do agree that it seems to be the extremists that make the most noise in any organization, and unfortunately it's often those same extremists who work their way into important positions in those groups. To take an off-topic example, that's doubtless why the Islamic religion has something of a bad reputation. We only hear about the extremists who think everyone else is evil. I think the same holds true in groups like the NFB.
Maybe that's what the ACB or other organizations need to do, get their voices heard out a bit more. It was the same for me actualy, I had heard about the braille plus from WX1G and then actualy my technology instructor had found it through APH, and that's how I got mine. Same with zoomtext they didn't force magic on me. I am glad that the instructors that I had were open to other forms of technology then just FS.
Post 45 in this thread really made me laugh hard. Thank so much for that. It was from Jenni.
@148 you can set a site up free of charge over at 50webs www.50webs.com no ads or anything.
WEll here is the rest of the story. I basically said fuck it and walked out a week early just as as I said I'd do. They scowled at me but I just gave it right back to them. I'm now at home in mississippi putting up with a druggy and a super nutty religious grandmom who thinks everything I do is of the devil, but hey, it's better than being bitched at in an nfb training center. I'm threw there, and oh yeah, my record has unsuccessful rather than, incomplete. Go figure, it's all my fault and they done nothing wrong because they're the best in the world. Yeah ok uh huh.
If I hadn't posted here I would have had mikes foot up my ass he was bugging me every damn day to post here.
Glad to hear it.
I still fail to see the reasons for a residential training anyway, except maybe logistics; maybe I'm thick, but wouldn't it be better to show someone within the context and confines of where they're at? Show them how to get around *in their own neighborhood* ... I knew someone who lost their eyesight and the Braille course he was given was all about Helen Keller, stuff he wouldn't read ordinarily. So I told him to use speech to go on the Onion newspaper find the article he wanted to read and use Braille to do the best he could ... and that's how he learned Braille.
I tested him by once he was navigating the Onion website with Braile - I switched his favorite so instead of the Onion, it pointed to the Savage Love column on the Onion - before that got moved to Mercury - to see how long it took im to figure it out; hey that worked ... and yeah, when his actual Braille instructor found out - like he's not a grown man anyway - she approached me and got all indignant . But really, learn to read and do what you usually do rather than change it all into some cloistered format ...
Just sayin' I'd think it would be better to learn in context of what you normally do anyway. but some ppl on here are actual trainers; what I did was just as a friend ...
p.s. what qualifies as 'daily living' skills in Amsterdam? seems like the tools of the trade might be a li'l bit different ...?
I tend to agree with you there. It makes more sense to train someone in the context of where they're living. But I suppose their reason is that the training center supposedly has everything the student could possibly want or need. It's funny. They tell you to think outside the box and yet they don't. As for Farcry I'm glad to hear you walked out of there. And if they've got a problem with it then tough shit. I've no respect at all for an organization that uses only one teaching method regardless of whether it actually works for everybody or not. And the second someone starts trying to tell me what cane I should use they just might find that cane protruding from shall we say, a fairly awkward place...
Hey now, some of them might actually like that ... lol
I would agree with the fact that training should take place where the person lives, but honestly since that's not the current trend, I guess some people want to make the best out of what they can. I personally had a good experience at the one training center I went to, but when I went home, and out of that environment, I found it difficult to connect the skills I'd learned there to m current environment. If more state agencies were open to home-based training, hell, if they were more open to anything but the NFB, I think real progress would be made. That being said, I think training centers do have their place, as long as they're open to trying different methods of teaching for each individual student's needs, because learning things such as cooking, cleaning and mobility is a highly individualized process.
Cody, um wow to your last post, but I'm glad you're out of there.
I'm agreeing with dez their, but the skills that I got from that same training center, I'm still using and really didn't have any problem transitioning them to my college or my house, except the cooking one, but that's a department I'm really weak in.
Tiffanitsa
post 147: Well thought out, and very much enjoyed this post.
robozork, learn within the context of what you do every day. Fantastic! I've always believed that, as it will promote learning. Of course, it never hurts to learn/think outside the box, but only when you have the basic tools down can you challenge yourself.
To post 123:
I am certainly not speaking against guide dog users, being one myself, however, just because I use a dog doesn't mean I throw away my cane. There are times when I may need to use my cane because my dog is sick, or because she needs a break, or, most likely, because the environment where I will be isn't conducive to guide dogs, such as a loud concert or somewhere where she maybe wouldn't be working as much. Whatever works for you works for you, but working your dog all the time and not keeping up your cane skills could hurt you in the long run. Dogs need breaks, too, and the practice of leaving them alone every now and again is also a good thing. Having said all of that, perhaps your original post didn't imply any of this, to which I do apologize.
One last thing: NFB centers know how to teach cane technique, and are not guide dog schools. Because of this, I commend them for not trying to teach guide dog technique and focus on the cane. A dog might be your primary way of travel, as it is mine, but when you're in a center environment, as you choose to go there, you will have to abide by their methods and practices. What you do once out of there is totally up to you. As stated in other posts: no one mandates that everyone need go to a center to learn things. The approach works for some and not others.
I agree with Liz.
I would think that keeping the cane around would be a matter of common sense. Of course there are going to be times and places where you can't take your guide dog with you. What i don't get is why the NFB seems to be against guide dogs on principle. And i've heard that from other sources as well as here.
They're not against guide dogs. How I see it is they're against the idea that a guide dog is the only way to travel, the idea that if you have a dog you never again need to use a cane.
I completely echo what Liz said.
This whole topic is why I am so thankful for the CNIB. Not going near these schools with a ten foot pole.
The N F B is bad in general.
As are quite a few organizations for the blind, claiming they do nothing but good, but....I'd like to see that come true. Lol.
Yeah seriously. Lol.
The Bureau of indian Affairs was very successful in the latter part of the 19th and early part of the 20th century for one reason:
willing Indians who were willing to sell out thir fellows, to enforce the ideals of the great whites. Mind you I possess no 'white guilt' as lack of pigments is nothing to be ashamed of, but groups like the one I mentioned do serve as a stellar example. You can see it even on these boards: people picking others apart for adverse social behaviors or such like.
When I raised birds we had one solution and one only for birds that went about the picking behavior: I took no risks but caged them separately. By themselves, forever. Because once the picking starts, it *never* stops. Once when a woman complained that one of the birds was "all alone and lonely" I explained the alternative, pure and simple: probably one or more dead ones, lots of blood and feathers all over the cage.
I find this use of picking at one another, as described by some of these posts and some similar boards, to strike an amazing parallel with what I dealt with keeping birds. Only with birds it was very occasional, and the rare euthanasia of the picker was totally legal.
To the people talking about guide dogs, sure, I agree taht you can't take a dog everywhere. However if it is your primary method of travel, and you're already strong in that area when you decide to attend an NFB training center, who are they to say your method of choice is wrong? If they want to see your knowledge of cane skills, fine, that's good practice. Any guide dog school would do the same when you go to get subsequent dogs. But to imply that traveling with a dog is bad is just not right, and they shouldn't have the right to dictate or even put down a person who chooses this as their primary method of travel.
just to clarify a few points
first, as far as I know, no state agency is run by the NFB. there are 3 official NFB centers: Louisiana Center for the Blind in Ruston, LA
Blind inc in Minneapolis
and the Colorado Center for the Blind in CO.
the other 97 centers in the country aren't in any shape or form affiliated with the NFB. there are plenty of choices out there for training.
As far as learning in one's home environment, the NFB's philosopy is that skills once learned should be able to transfer from place to place. Crossing a street one place is no different than crossing a street in another city or town. ditto for cooking, reading braille, or using the computer.
Plus, expanding your horizons beyond your home and family allows you to gain your independence without interference from overly helpful family members.
Your attitude about yourself as a blind person changes as you learn new skills. You learn your equal to anyone, sighted or blind, and that just because your sight is gone, you can lead a full life and don't have to be limited.
Makes me charish the CNIB even more. We should be able to receive training anywhere we would like as free citizens. Especially if living on one's own. I haven't seen my family in three years due to the traveling I do and its been good for me to be away because sometimes people like to help too much.
I must say one thing. The NFB is not antidog. That is hogwash...I know NFB members who use them.
The one thing that really pisses me off to no end is when anybody, no matter who, and what they work for, rejects your travel method. It's times like those when I just want to say: "You will work around this, or I will find someone who will.". There is no excuse for that, in my opinion. Most of us don't use our canes as whips, and I'm pretty sure a dog guide that bites is an extreme rarity. Therefore, nobody is being harmed by a method of travel. that being said, there is no reason why this can't be worked around. Sorry....Off topic, I know.
If you reject my travel methods I will whip you with my cane free of charge.
How! Well… here's just my opinion on the situation.
Case and point, he should get the fuck out of there. That center is doing just what blind schools are aiming to do if they are not doing it already. Also, I agree with screaming turtle that it's nothing more than simple rights. Sighted people use systems that they have worked with and conformed to all the time, so why can't we? I've even seen sighted peoples writing improve because they use a special pen. Different color, size, etc. one size doesn't even begin to fit all. That's such bullshit I can't even begin to bitch about it.
So, then, Let’s start with something simple.
Everyone does What the fuck they want to how they do it. Hell, even people take a shit different ways, so how can, exactly, one size fit all? No, no, no, no, no!
Secondly… if a person is supposed to be there to learn skills, then offucking course they won’t know what to do right off the bat. That's why it's an independent living center, so they can learn how to do it! I hate it when people say “if I wasn't here…. What would you do?” hmm… if you weren’t here… well, god damn, I don't know What the fuck I’d do. I’d ask my roommate to just simply open it for me, set the stove, tell me what pan this is, etc. so, oh great shit headed one, I think I’d be pretty good without yah, don't cha thing?
Thirdly… why the hell would you hide your blindness? That's got to the biggest shit pool ever created. Why would anyone go to great extent to try and hide their blindness. In the end it makes you look like a larger dip shit then the person who up front tells someone he or she has a vision issue. By the way, that's one of the first things I tell someone when I meat them, is that I'm visually impaired. Why hide it?
Also, they won’t allow gay people in. I've emailed these people about it, and they elegantly said “no.” looks like I'm out then. Laughing out loud.
I'm done with my ranting. Get me a coffee.
Hmmm use my cane as a whip....me like...
people hide their blindness; I've seen it firsthand. as a matter of fact, I knew a girl who'd much rather bump into things and claim she could see, than admit the truth.
as far as them not letting gay people in, it's just a misconception. if that were the case, I wouldn't have been allowed there, as I'm more towards women than men.
Oh, I've met a couple people who tried to hide their blindness too, but honestly, if they'd rather be in denial, that's their business. The NFB shouldn't use people like that to their advantage and say the perfectly sane and safe act of folding a cane is hiding blindness. If you really wanted to do that you wouldn't carry a cane at all.
Sorry to say, but the NFB has some strange philosophies.
Hi, all I can say is wow! Let's please do a little research before just expanding on whatever hearsay gets posted on a message board. I'm sure that there are many people who have no clue as to what the NFB or any other organized movement does or has done and those people will take one look at these posts, scream, and just hide.
So, here are some myths which are purely that, myths.
NFB center philosophy works under a one size fits all regime.
This is not true, as a very important part of how the centers portray their training is the idea of “transferable skills.” These are skills that can be, well, transferred from one area of life, to another, from one country to another, from cold weather to hot weather. In other words, these are skills which are learned through individual practice, trial and error, and helpful guidance which the student strongly relies on as they begin the program and les as they improve and move along. . You do not learn to follow particular routes to work for example, you learn to travel independently.
The NFB and its centers hate all non-long-non-white canes.
This is not true, as for training centers, the long white cane is preferred because it does not collapse easily like a telescopic cane, and it is longer and lighter than an aluminum cane, which might, for many people make travel allot faster and safer, as it covers allot more ground and can be more versatile. When you are not training, you are able to use whatever means of cane you wish.
The NFB hates gays!
Not true, there are many active gay members who attend the centers, and participate in all aspects of the organization. However, there is no official organized LGBT division currently active.
NFB and its centers hate guide dog users!
Absolutely false…. The training centers are not against dogs, as I personally know of people who have attended the centers with their dogs, and the dogs didn’t complain at all. Also, NFB has national and state guide dog user divisions which are very active.
NFB says, “If you don’t use a long straight white cane, you are hiding your blindness!”
Again, see above as to why the long white cane is preferred, it has nothing to do with hiding blindness. However, there are those who do use a folding or telescoping cane to avoid what they feel are social stigmas which come from “appearing blind.” And as always, there are bossy people around who like to tell others what is best for them, so…
NFB is super ultra conservative.
Not at all. However, keep in mind that this is a national organization, with local chapters. This means that divisions in different parts of the country might have leadership which is very conservative, or not very conservative. In other words, don’t be surprised if your division is down south, and everyone goes to church, and everyone is Christian. However, if you live in Mass, or NY, and everyone goes to church, and everyone is Christian, then you should absolutely be surprised.
As to whether you should agree with their views or not, do your own research, find out for yourself.
Google is but a tab away.
I completely and wholeheartedly agree with the last poster. Sheesh ...
The point is, in training, if a person is coming to improve on their existing cane skills, why should they be forced to switch to a different one? And as for their methods of mobility, don't even get me started. If a person comes with no confidence in their own skills, how will they expand on them? I'll give an example. I read a book called After This, An Inspirational Journey For All the Wrong Reasons, by Marcus Engel. It's an autobiography of a guy who went blind after a car accident. Little did I know that he gained his confidence back by going to an NFB training center. Well, the last thing he was expected to do in order to graduate from the program was take a predetermined route, no instructor was to be present, and he was only allowed to ask one question about his orientation. My immediate reaction was disbelief, but beyond that I was wondering how the hell anyone would know if he asked more than one question if no one was observing him anyway. But the point is, after I read that book about a year ago, my interest in the NFB and its practices and philosophy really peaked. Yes, he made it back to the center safe and sound, but I don't think this approach works for everyone. There are some people who just never really had the experience of doing something so big, and things like depression or other mental illnesses can really make a task like this disabling.
Now back to the cane stuff, I understand that after the training is over, that person can go back to their preferred travel method. Hell, they could just ditch all the skills and go back to living in their parents' basement if they so choose. However, people wouldn't accuse them of having a one size fits all regime if they didn't impose the straight cane on people. You only need to look at things the original poster of this thread said to see that it is in fact true.
This brings me to my other point. I don't think people would intentionally try to discredit an organization if they didn't want to see changes happening. I feel that the frustration expressed in this thread is completely justified, as is the support it receives. If people want to do research before attending a training center, they can look at this board. Ok, so it's not a primary source someone should use, but I've directed several people here just so they can draw their own opinion of it. It really is quite a touchy subject for a lot of people.
As for the anti-gay stuff, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it's really about the areas of the country where certain chapters reside. More than likely, there are some southern chapters which do discourage openly gay members from joining, and that's a shame, but that's also life. We can't change everything.
To post 123, I atented that center in Texas for a few months in 2003. It was not for me at all and I left early.
I have a friend who is at Blind Inc right now and she says she's really learned a lot since she's been there.
That's another thing. Why call a place Blind Inc.? it sounds like you're manufacturing blind people, perhaps as a marketing ploy. I'm not saying that's how it is, but it sure sounds that way. I'd never go to a center with a name like that.
Okay, I have always heard from "leaders" that to not use a white cane is to hide your blindness. Maybe they're changing that but that was once the message.
I'm with dez on that one. That's just an odd name for a center.
and here I thought that blind ink was the name of a tattoo establishment aka LA ink or miami ink. Gees my illusions are trashed again.
I have little direct experience with the NFB. However, in general, I have some serious issues with any group taking folk from their home environment and taking them out of state or in some other way separate them from their ability to free themselves from the situation. Xow, being fair, the NFB isn't doing the taking. People choose to go, or are told to. I have advised people, though they weren't blind, not to do something like that, especially if they're emotionally confused or something. Isolation, indoctrination, that sort of thing I find chilling. This isn't about the NFB, it's about an isolated environment where you have walls, the keepers and the kept.
robozork, It could and has been argued by some that the NFB has cult elements. Now, I didn't say that. I'm just reporting what I hear. TNow y'all please, don't bomb my house.
I personally do not let the cultish componints of the N F B drag me under; I use them for the socialization process. We get together at chapter meetings and have a good chuckle over some drinks. Yes, they serve alcohol at many of the events. Hmmm...haven't been to a chapter event in some time.
they're trying to start a chapter here in my area. The nearest one to me is in Milwaukee, which is ... oh, I'd say two hours from here, not very sure about he exact distance, but that's just plain annoying.
Ah well.
Margorp, the concern about cultish type tendencies isn't as much for someone stable like you, but what happens to someone maybe who has recently lost their sight. As I said, it's not so much a blind thing, it's a group / cult thing, and those types, no matter who they are, always make me nervous.
I believe one reason why they use the white cane is because it is cheaper to buy them than all these fansier canes. I think that if you have one of your own then they should be able to let you use it. I had to go to a thing for a week for evaluation for visual service for college, and I took my own cane, they did not take my cane away and did not make me use a white cane. What they did do is told me that a pencil tip was not for sweeping and asked me if I would like to have a roling tip, and then gave one to me for free. My school I had gone to always tought us to use the cane with a pencil tip.
Robozork:
I see what you mean...it's the ones who have just gone blind...the yung whiper-snappers and the old fuddie-duddies.
[redacted]
Get off at a strange airport and ask for no assistance? I traveled on business quite a bit some years back, and would always ask the airport staff to take me to their cab stands, as I was in strange cities.
So ridiculous. Ask someone who knows how and not necessarily blind, and you can figure things out.
And on sites like BlindMiceMart there are measuring cups and spoons and the like which are labeled for us, stuff I never had at your age. Since you're talking moving out, I assume you're eighteen or the like. Good luck with it: You don't need a center, just some decent friends or relatives not afraid to try stuff / show you the basics.
The problem, as I've stated previously, is that what if the person has no decent friends or relatives to fall back on? They either have to really push for understanding, which is not always the best thing to do, because pushing something on someone might make them uncomfortable. Or it might not, you might open their minds to a new way of thinking, and they'll help you. It's a risk you have to take. Or, you attend a training center if you really can't find the support you need. There should always be other options though. The NFB shouldn't be saying they're the best and the only ones, that's called a monopoly. I know it can't technically be called that because they're a nonprofit organization, but whenever you go to your rehab counselor and say you want to attend a training center, the first thing they recommend is the NFB ones, because they're the most well-known, and the counselors usually don't think outside the box...they just do their jobs. State agencies exist, but they're tough to find. They also usually only serve those in the state in which they reside. So, I think the NFB needs a serious attitude change if they want to stay alive. They should help blind people despite their background, lifestyle etc. Also, the argument that "lots of people benefit from its training methods" doesn't work with me AT ALL. Just because a hundred people say it worked for them doesn't mean it's gonna work for me. Everybody's different, and should be treated as such. In a society obsessed with sacrificing your identity and uniqueness for the sake of professionalism, the last thing we need is one more dictatorship of an organization. Blind people especially usually need a lot of emotional support. Not all of course, some come from great backgrounds, but I'll give a personal example from my own life. I grew up in the middle of nowhere, no one had probably ever seen a blind person before, so I was constantly bullied and harassed all through elementary and middle school by students and teachers alike. My parents refused to support me, saying that I was only in school for an education and nothing else should matter, or just completely running away from it (my mom) or occasionally flying into a rage and threatening to sue the school, which I knew would do no good (my dad.) By late middle school, most had grown tired of bullying me, but they refused to include me at all. Even if I started a conversation with someone, I was ignored. One day, I accidentally bumped a girl with my cane and she literally squeaked like a little mouse and ran away. I snapped that day...and that's when I knew something had to change. I started attending Overbrook School for the Blind in 10th grade, but nothing improved. There, I was treated like I was an inconvenience, a failure, and a horrible person. I met a couple great people there, but the rest tried their best to tear apart any relationships I established, both with vicious rumors and truths (I was quite different from everyone else there, which made both teachers and students uncomfortable.) I came out an even bigger emotional wreck than I was goingin, and to this day I really have no reason to believe that I'm loved except by my boyfriend.
So what does this have to do with the NFB? Well, the only light at the end of the tunnel I experienced, as I said in previous posts, was when I attended the wonderful CBVI training center. There, for the first time in my life, adults thought I was a human capable of normal emotions and normal functioning. I experienced belonging in a group for the first time. I experienced people boosting my confidence, for real, not because they felt obligated but because they believed in me. But that center is long gone...and I could really use their help. But I'll be damned if I'll break my fragile psychological state to go to an NFB center that will do nothing but stomp on me. I know I couldn't handle their methods because I've experienced nothing but harshness in my life, and I need understanding and guidance now more than ever.
As for the airport bullshit, that's ridiculous, but see my post about the book. I really recommend that book, it's a great read until your blood starts to boil about the NFB...But I think it only infuriates me so much because he actually benefitted from it, but as I've previously stated, it's your right to take from it what you will. I don't have to agree with it, however, nor do you have to agree with why I hate it so much.
I'm all for encouraging, and even stressing independence, but not being allowed to ask for help in a place like an air port, really big, really busy, and very likely to change a lot? That's absolutely ridiculous, and I will never abide by that.
CBVI for the win! That's actualy where I met Screaming_Turtle, got back in touch with Jeff who I hadn't talked to in about 10 years, met cody, and I agree with what dez said, they really did treat you like an adult and they did want to show you how to do things. Now my mom said that it was a waste of money because I really didn't learn much, but while she is right, I really didn't I still made some damn good friends that I still keep in touch with to this day Dez and Cody in particular.
I think they would have taught me a hell of a lot more if they had the time. But since we went to just a summer program, it wasn't their fault we didn't learn much.
to clear up the misconception about traveling in an airport and not being able to ask for assistance, the person who said that's the case probably meant it in reference to while a person is in training at an nfb center. they want you to apply the skills you've been taught; they do encourage you to ask for help. in saying that, though, I think people's frustration partly comes from the fact instructors at nfb-based centers encourage trying before asking for help...I say that cause I had a major problem with that at first too.
Robozork I’m way over eighteen. I won’t say my age because I’m ashamed that I’m moving so late in life. Staying home was never my choice. I’ve wanted to move out since I was nine because my home life isn’t great. I won’t go in to the circumstance on the board. If people want to know my circumstances, they can message me. I didn’t move out when I was eighteen because she made it seem so great and I thought things would be fine. I was also honestly scared to be on my own. I regretted that decision to stay and was going to move out at twenty but I was told that I couldn’t support myself. I tried to move out when I was twenty four after I graduated from college and was in the process of finding a job but my mom tried to give me a guilt trip by saying that I was pushing her away by moving out. I developed chronic pain and haven’t been able to move out. She never taught me how to cook and clean and every time I try, everything is wrong to her, so I can’t learn from her. I don’t have anyone to teach me. There is more to this story but that’s all I will share on the board I think I’ve said too much on the board already.
Screming_turtle, the rehab counselor in my state or I think in any state won’t pay for out of state centers unless you fight them on it, so I highly doubt that they push the nfb on people. I’m willing to fight my rehab counselor on what ever I have too. This would also mean reopening my file because they closed it when I couldn’t work. That’s another thing they won’t pay for a center if it’s not to get a job. That’s the only way they will pay is if I can work. I’m willing to work from home online but that doesn’t count to them. Screaming Turtle I was also bullied in elementary school but what helped me was switching schools for middle school and high school but then I found another problem, which was loneliness because people wouldn’t come and talk to me. The teachers would actually give extra credit for kids to sit with me at lunch.
Wow that's terrible. See like I said kids and teachers avoided me like the plague, but now I kind of see that as their problem. The teachers did the bare minimum of what they felt they had to do, like getting my assignments Brailled on time, but a lot of them, especially by the time I hit 8th or 9th grade, just gave me an A if they forgot, or if they felt sorry for me. I'd rather have people avoiding me any day though than have somebody be bribed into talking to me.
Isn't it best to learn by doing? I mean, if you are in an airport or something and can't find the gate, the desk, or the water fountain, isn't it acceptible to ask a worker or someone who can point you in the right direction?
I should think so: I'm generally in the airport because I'm in transit. That means somebody's paying me, usually, so I generally do what's most expedient political stuff be damned.
Right on.
wait! so they wanted you to go to a strange city, get off the plain, and go find your stuff? this with out any help? wow they must be mad! that's just messed up in my opinion.
Ok, I'm all for trying to do something once before asking for help but if you do come to the realization that you are going to need help with someting you should be allowed to get assistance from someone and to hell with the red tape. Say what you will but I have no respect for the NFB and not merely because of their one size fits all teaching mentality. First there was that attempt to get paper money made accessible which they then backed ot of because they decided it would separate blind folks from the sighted even more. Now there's this car they're proposing. Prove to me that they've actually done their homework and then maybe I'll be convinced.
Playing catchup again... To BryanP22: Where abouts (I mean in what state not city/etc) do you live that you were offered jobs washing tables or stuffing envelopes? The first might be a small entry into the food business. That is, if they start letting the person do other things and the second is interesting. How do you know what goes where, unless these are all generic. Any job that I've seen which mentioned envelopes was always part of a regular office job, not stand-alone, and always involved sight because of sorting. Do they push these types of jobs on college graduates too? Here in NJ, it's call centre work, as I've said, or sales. z726's account has been disabled but I'll still respond. As much as I don't like the NFB, I'd certainly choose them over a drug addict and a religious fundamentalist. To LeoGuardian: I fully applaud you. It's bad enough when someone loses their sight, but then, to make them read something in which they have no interest? I could understand if that was all that was available, but since there are other braille materials out there, I think the teachers should at least have given him some suplimental work or encouraged him to find things that interested him, even if he did have to follow the book. I think you did a great job in helping your friend. I also agree with your comments about learning things at home. While these skills are transferable, I'd much rather learn how to get around my own neighbourhood and then use these skills gradually in new surroundings. To screaming_turtle: I could fully understand what you're saying. For instance, if a place teaches the students to cook on an electric flat-top stove and they have a gas one with dials and burners, this could not only be confusing but dangerous as well. To voicedude: Thanks for the compliment on my earlier post. To jamesk: While I do agree that gaining independence from those who would be overly helpful, there's also something to be said for working with the family. Perhaps, if they really are nervous, it might be a good idea to let them sit in on a few sessions and watch their child/relative learn how to be independent. It might make them feel more confident and make it easier to let go. Actually, I have to disagree with you on streets and computers, since I've already brought up cooking. Some towns have very logical streets that are level and that have straight kerbs with which you could simply line up and go on your way. But others are full of holes or tree roots (like in my town) and their kerbs are rounded, so that if you tried to line up with them, you could be heading into oncoming traffic. I had this problem in PA and it's one that I mastered for that particular street but I'm not sure if I could do it in other places. I also don't know why they don't just make them normal and straight but that's for another topic. Typing on a computer is always the same for those using a standard keyboard. But some people use Windows, some use Mac, some use Linux and some use DOS. So the actual systems are different and I've never seen any places that teach anything except Windows. Furthermore, most places/classes for the blind that I've come across are really basic. So what happens when someone with more advanced skills wants to expand his/her horizons? To kingettblue: Good point about doing things if the questioner wasn't there. Common sense. I'm as baffled as you as to why anyone would wish to hide their blindness. As a child, I could understand being worried of what others thought, but not as an adult, especially when you could use adaptive technology or even different ways of doing things that might make your life easier. To screaming_turtle: Excellent point about the cane. If anyone really does try to use the excuse that a folding cane means hiding blindness, they really need to relocate their common sense. As you said, if someone wanted to hide their blindness that badly, they wouldn't bring a cane in the first place. To Ok Sure: Thank you for disspelling some of these myths. As someone who has had very little experience with the NFB, other than attending about two meetings and joining their Krafters Korner (which I really enjoy) I have nothing to go on but what others say. I would be very interested in learning how mobility is taught without routes. I've only seen the former way but think there's alot more to gain by having the actual skills needed to work around things like detours etc. We also have far more options available today, like gps systems, which could help us get around. I'm not sure what is meant by long canes. I thought that the long cane was simply the opposite of the one used in the 30's, which was held in the air rather than having it's tip put on the ground. Also, I was under the impression that for legal and safety reasons, all canes used by the blind in America are white. I once had a telescopic cane that collappsed alot, but not all are like this. The one that I use now is also teliscopic and it's very durable and strong. The only times that it's fallen apart are when I accidentally unscrewed a part too much and it came off or when I didn't tighten a part enough so that it loosened itself and came off. But that's rare and only happens when I'm not paying attention. I'm in New Jersey, and noticed that alot of the blind people/groups near me are either Christian or still incorporate an openly Christian prayer before their meetings etc. I've always found that this makes me slightly uncomfortable. If an organisation is national and not specifically religious, why do they do things like that? I, agree about research and I, for one, would be very interested in hearing things from the ACB's point of view, since they seem to be the NFB's main rival. To screaming_turtle: I completely agree with you about the incident in the book. The NFB seems to think that asking a sighted person for help is some kind of a crime. Sighted people can get lost too and often ask for directions. I understand that it's important for us to learn how to get places, but why should we shut out the rest of the world when doing it? And you're also right that not everyone can cope with something that large, even when they're about to graduate from a centre. Maybe, in a few months, they could do it, but some simply need time to adjust and to take everything in. For others, it's a matter of the kinds of streets they might need to cross i.e. really busy or quiet local ones. I'd be terrified if I were told to cross a huge street with many busy lanes. I still don't see what's wrong with a folding or telescopic cane, particularly if someone's already used to useing one. Honestly, I couldn't care less what a place is called, so long as I get what I need out of it. To Nicky: Glad to see that they helped you with your tip and gave it to you for free no less. To Persevere Warrior: That is completely disrespectful and hypocritical of them. How can they stand there and claim to want to help the blind and then refuse you because of pain problems? So what if you can't do rafting and rock climbing? You're there to learn cooking and cleaning! And then they have the nerve to fight against discrimination? I could understand asking you about getting on the plane and through the airport. Since this is an independence place, they get all types (well, assuming that they accept them of course). But to tell you that you shouldn't ask for help in a busy airport and in a place where you've never been? If I didn't know better, I'd say he was on drugs! I too think it's wrong to not accept help when you need it, though politely refusing when you can handle a task is fine. I agree with you about the meetings about blindness. Why should I be ashamed of being blind, particularly, as you said, since I've been that way all my life. I do think that, in some instances, having a longer cane does help you feel things sooner, but I've never found it to be any better at echo location than the regular ones. It's also difficult to use a longer cane in a crowded situation. I actually ajust mine to fit the circumstance. There are also some situations in which it's simply easier to go with friends or family, especially if you'll be out for a short time or are going into a crowded area or a store with many breakable objects in close proximity to each other. Have you considered asking your local state agency for help? They might be able to send someone out to you who can work with you one on one with cooking and cleaning. To screaming_turtle: If state agencies exist, wouldn't it be the person's as well as the counselor's job to investigate them? Agreed that the NFB should help all sorts of blind people, not just certain ones. I've never thought of the blind needing emotional support, but I come from a background where my entire family always supported me no matter what. Certinly, your example makes clear that this can be a serious issue and I think that it should definitely be offered where appropriate. This is especially true for children who can be extrasensative and who, in general, need reassurance and to know that people really do care about them. To Persevere Warrior: There's no shame in moving out at a later age, particuarly if it's because of something like pain. I could never understand guilt trips. I mean, at 24, you were certainly an adult and it sounds like your mother was being a bit selfish trying to keep you with her. The New Jersey Comission paid for my stay in PA and we didn't have to fight that much. I simply explained to them that I didn't want to go to the JKRC (the local place), though to be honest, I wish that I would've gone there instead of the other one. Still, I did have an excellent mobility experience there and that was worth alot to me. I didn't go with the intentions of getting a job. I went for independence and no one said anything about it. I was avoided too, but while it hurt in the beginning, I eventually built up a wall and a "fuck you" attitude. If they didn't want to be with me they weren't worth my time. I submerged myself in books and learning. But that way has a negative side too because while I'm very open about my life and making friends comes easy to me, I tend to not keep in touch with them, to make the effort to contact them etc. and in college, I wasn't the forward type, partly because I was more interested in my education, partly because it was awqward trying to get a hold of people without seeing them and yes, partly because of that wall. To BryanP22: Totally agreed with you there. If something works for me, I couldn't care less who approves of it. I do it and get on with my life. That's a good point about the money issue. Yet another hypocritical, not to mention ridiculous, thing spouted off by the NFB. So having to bring along money identifiers, which may or may not work, or having to be at the whim of the sighted cashier etc. who may jip us, or even having to fold our money a certain way doesn't separate us from the sighted? I would think that being able to read our own money would make things quicker and more efficient. Even if these other things about them are myths, the idea of not asking for or being willing to receive help from the sighted and this refusal to help us gain independence with money can't be denied.
Wow, that was a really long paragraph.
This was every state I've applied for work in. Granted it's only been Idaho and Oregon since I've been looking for about eight years now and those are the only two states I've lived in during that time. As for call center work I actually had a job interview at a call center a few weeks ago and I'm supposed to have a second one anytime now, where they do an assessment of my skills and whatnot. Call center work wasn't exactly what I'd had in mind but if it's a choice between that and some monotonous chore that I might not move up from because an employer would be afraid anything else, whether it be typing on a computer or whatever, would be too hard and they didn't want to get sued if I got hurt on the job, I'll take the call center if I can get it. In fact my last summer job involved stuffing envelopes for a hospital's business office to mail out. They'd give me several bins a day and make it doable for me by seeing to it that each bin contained letters meant only for one branch of the five-branch hospital. They tried to have me do basic writing as well but I've never been able to get the hang of any print letters beyond my initials and even that I don't always do right. Then for my one and only work study position in college I ended up wiping tables in the cafeteria.
Tiffanitsa that’s sure a long post and I agree with everything you said. I thought that they were discriminating on me to by telling me that they could accept me because of the pain. I thought he was on drugs too when he told me about not asking help at the airport. I haven’t asked my local state agency yet because I’m giving the treatment that I’m using for the pain time. If it works then the pain would go away.Even dough I don’t want to go if the pain goes away I think that one of the three nfb centers is where I would go. I’ll just have to suck it up and take it. I just don’t know which of the three brain washing centers to pick. I won’t go to the center in my state because they aren’t very good.
I know someone going to the one in Colorado. It sounds okay.
My sincerest apologies for such a long post and for not breaking it up into paragraphs. I was extremely tired when I wrote it so wasn't thinking clearly.
I've done that before. Then I read them later and discover to my horror that I've actually let some text lingo shorthand crap slip into my writing. And that's something I always strive to avoid since quite frankly I think it's lazy. But I've made that view clear in another topic so I'll leave it at that.
the commis of blindness. The staff don't care, and at an nfb camp I went to there wher plenty of incodents of people getting sexually herased that went unchecked. The staff stated simpley quote, it doesn't effect and the students are just playing. Sound like bullshitt, I had to use a cain of there's at one point... ugg... never again.
Does anyone know for sure if the NFB centers are changing their sleep shade policy again? I heard that now, even if you are totally blind with no light perception whatsoever, you are required to wear a blindfold, but this is only a rumor and not a certainty. Can someone varify this? If it is true, then it makes no logical sense.
I have heard they make everyone use sleep shades even if they can't see a thing.
Wow! This threads still going on, and still really good. Tiff, excellent post and I agree with you. About the sleep shades, when I was at GEB, I had to use them, to get more in tune with my dog, and to be honest, I really don't like them. I do have some sight so that was their reasoning and I agreed with them but I ... don't know I just don't like them. But the good thing was it helped. About the NFB having you use sleep shades even if you are a total, isn't that a bit dumb? What would be the point? The same for people with only light perception.
Hey all,
Just read this extremely long thread. I'm currently staying at the JKRC. This must not be an NFB one, as I don't have to deal with all this crap about using a certain cane. I proved my skills with Braille, so I requested to opt out. The request was granted within a week.
Also, my Mobility instructor doesn't seem bad. Have to learn Daily Living skills due to parents and family in general being extremely overprotective, doing things for me, where it starts to become rutine based and I'm generally not interested in them being tought in the home where other people are around.
Unfortunately because of this I'm the most infearior student Daily Living skills are concerned right now. At least the ADL instructor said he'd work one-on-one with me regardinng eating skills, cutting food and that.
People also seem to think I have a problem with my social skills here. Could this be because I'm on thee computer a hell of a lot? Don't get me wrong--I can socialize, I'm just quiet and don't engage in every group discussion or whatever.
So have I learned a lot here? Well, some things yes, but I guess it takes time. I'm glad they're less controling here. Classes run like a school would from 9AM-3:50PM.
It's late and I'm tired, so message me with any questions and whatnot you may have. Like some posts have said, maybe it's just the center. I've asked if JKRC was ran by the ACB, and they didn't know if the ACB even ran any. Now they're trying to convince me to pay $80 for a weekend at the NJ NFB Convension. Bleh. Some of the staff are members here and there's no way in hell I'm becoming a member of any organization for the blind. I feel as though it's not needed. I don't need some blindness support group. If I want to socialize I'll go out to eat or something.
You know, the times I have been around other blind people, I find they find me a bit of a recluse or not social, don't think they put all that together.
But anyway that would seem strange to any sighted person I know. While I'm no social butterfly I'm not exactly a hermit either.
That being said, I had it explained to me by two different people that groups of blind people are in general far more verbal, quite put off when you just enter a room, set down an item, then leave without saying something, something my one-tracked mind will have me do a lot. I'm not saying this is you, but it has happened to me on the rare occasions I've been in a situation with five or so other blind people. Can't imagine what a whole complex of them would be like but the verbal thinkgdoes make logical sense if you stop to think about it.
Are they all college age? Ask 'em what the hell they mean by 'social skills', I think the new insert word here followed by skills is just psychobabble. If I were to dare say that someone lacked basic deductive reasoning skills (now that sir, is a large part of the human population), I'd probably catch it from a froot loop at HR for 'not being nice', but people can tqalk up a storm about someone's <insert word here> skills be they a tuple of people, social, relationships, probably stuff you or I haven't even thought of.
It's just fuzzy thinking words so ask someone you trust to unfuzz it for you and tell you what's the trouble. Maybe someone you've confided in about the protectionism you were forced to endure. That does sound like a great disadvantage, which means you show a lot of guts going in there, taking control, and learning what you need to know. Good for you for stepping up there.
Leo
I have a story to tell and it is not hateful.
In the summer of 2006, I got on a plane by myself and flew from Tennessee to Colorado. I was excited and nervous as I flew closer and closer to the Denver airport where I would be picked up by some of the staff at the Colorado Center for the Blind's summer youth program. I had just turned 17 that April and had also just completed my Sophomore year at Tennessee School for the Blind. I had heard about the center in great detail from a friend who had been to the summer youth program a couple years in a row and she was there the year I was as well. She later went through their ITP program. I knew that I would be given instruction in travel, both residential and city, as well as independent living skills, braille and Technology. I also knew about the canes and sleep shades policy. Despite all this, I went with an open mind, wanting to take what I could from the experience, good or bad. This is the way I have always approached anything, so I found it very easy to adopt this mentality in this situation.
So, I and some others whose planes had landed close to the same time mine did were taken back to the apartment complex the center uses for both the youth and ITP programs. We were introduced to our "councilor" as well as the other person we would be living with for two months. I do have a reason for putting councilor in quotes. That is what his/her official title was, but they didn't really "council" us, they just provided a helping hand if needed, and we had to ask. They weren't going to do it for us and I liked that.
Over the next three weeks, I came to know the instructors and people in the youth program itself. I also learned that the cane and sleep shades thing was not really a big deal to me, because I was given what they called an "Iowa cane." This cane had ridges all the way down and around it but had the same slippery grip and chrome tip that the smooth telescopic one had that I brought back home with me.
The "Iowa cane," apparently did not break nearly so easy as the smooth fiberglass ones do. I got it into some pretty tough situations, and while it did flex more than my ambutech folding cane I brought with me, it always snapped straight out again, like a very efficient spring. The chrome tips do wear down much faster than a marshmallow tip, for instance, but the ability to tell slight texture changes in the ground easily is nice, although not a requirement for me. The only reason I use my ambutech cane now instead of one of the NFB canes is because the tips last a lot longer and I do not have to spend five minutes trying to find a position and place to store my rigid stick when getting into a vehicle, especially if it is tiny or there is a lot of luggage or something in the place where I must sit. Also, I much prefer the rubber grip over that smooth one. As for the constantly getting stuck issue, I didn't have that one because I knew right away that I was going to have to switch from using the slide technique to using two-point-touch, which I did a bit reluctantly but I did it and was fine. Yes, the cane is great for outside travel because of the extra length, but inside a building or in very tight places, a folding cane is better. Inside a building, I had to hold the cane halfway down its length, which of course left the opportunity open for the top of the cane to get shoved rather rudely, all be it unintentionally, into my arm pit.
I would have this as a secondary cane, but I do not write them off. They do have their place.
As for the sleep shades, I got around that one. I have some light and shadow perception, but no real "functional" vision. They told me that even though I could just see light and shadows, I had to wear sleep shades. I consented, because I already had the idea of how I was going to deal with them, and it worked. I absolutely hate having anything over my face. Even when I was little, I didn't really like Halloween masks much. I'd wear the cape and all the other stuff, even the make-up if it was necessary, but fuck the mask. So, for the first couple of days after I received my sleep shades, I wore them, because the staff members did come around to check. I knew that as the program progressed, these checks would become less frequent. Besides, they wouldn't be able to tell just from listening to me walk if I was wearing them or not, because I don't have enough vision to make a difference either way. So after a few days, I conveniently lost them. When iw was given another pair, I wore them for a few more days until they found that I was wearing them every time they checked, so they just eventually didn't anymore, so I "lost" them again, and got away without wearing them for the rest of the time.
As for the classes, Home management, while I had done simple meals and basic cleaning tasks, it was an area that I didn't so much need instruction in so much as just practice. I had questions of course, but I asked them in a respectful manner, being sure to point out before actually asking the question what I already knew and what I thought their answer might be, and if I totally had no clue what the answer was, I just asked the question respectfully. I was not told to "do it myself" just because I asked a question about how I should proceed with some part of a task I didn't understand. Luckily, I am a very perceptive person and very logical and I also have very good people skills.
As for Travel, I knew the basics...good cane technique, what to listen for when crossing a street, etc. I had not had, until then, any experience with using public transportation, however, so that was new and exciting for me. I also had not been on that many independent routes. Oh sure, I got lost a lot, but I was not afraid to ask for help, even though sometimes I didn't ask until I was well and truly lost, more so than I would have been had I asked sooner, but hey, you can't blame me for trying. After all, that's what I was there to do.
As for technology and braille, I am highly skilled in both areas, but those classes were still fun because I got to help other people especially with technology. I also was able to practice using a slate and stylus, which I had used many times before but hadn't very much for the last three years or so before that. I still have that slate and stylus that they gave me when I left the center, and it stays in my backpack.
We also got to go to the national convention in Dallas, which was new and exciting experience for me for a whole host of reasons. I wasn't too crazy about the mandatory attendance of general session as well a s a couple other meetings, but outside of that we were pretty much able to do whatever we wished, within reason, of course, and that was what made it worth it, despite that little annoyance.
After returning from convention, we began learning the route that we would need to travel a few times a week to go to a place to gain work experience. I worked with Scott LaBarre and that was a truly enlightening experience in a lot of ways. Each student in the program worked at a different place and everybody was paid minimum wage, but at least it was something and even if I hadn't gotten paid anything at all, i wouldn't have complained one bit.
I hear a lot of crap about how the NFB is so against this and that. During the two months that I was at the center, I encountered none of this, except of course for the cane and sleep shades thing, which, while I do not agree that the people should be "forced" to use that particular cane and have what usable vision they still have stripped away, it's their policy. Either find the good in the other things the program has, suck it up and deal, or get the hell out. Main thing I got out of those two months was two words. "Self advocation." Just because they don't have a designated "spot" for GLBT foks like the ACB does, doesn't mean they are against them being members of their organization.
The J k R C is run by the commission for the blind which is also shit.
Verry nice post professor.
I am currently a student at the center in Minnesota. I am totally blind and am not required to wear sleep shades. It's only the ones who have light perception or any amount of residual vision who have to do that.
Well the light perception doesn't make any sense since as far as I'm concerned it's not what you can really call usable vision unless unlike me you could actually tell what color the light is and therefore could see and read traffic signals. That might make some sense but if all you can see is that it's light out then it makes no sense as far as I'm concerned.
If it was me, I would lie and say I was totally blind so I wouldn't have to wear the sleep shades. I'm one of the people who has light perception, and with the little vision I do have, if it's a cloudy day, I might be able to see the lines for the crosswalk. I would also be able to make out shadows of things that are in my path. Of course, I still use my cane for the majority of my travel skills, because on bright days I can't count on my vision at all, but I wouldn't want anyone to take that away from me. It's a tool that I take advantage of sometimes, and my condition is not degenerative, so I would feel degraded if someone tried to put a sleep shade on me for that reason.
I am currently at a training center out in Pittsburgh. I've only been here for 3 weeks, but I feel like I'm learning a lot. There are a couple of classes that are honestly pointless, and I'm not allowed to opt out of them, but I can deal with them. One of them is called Leisure Time Instruction, where you basically just sit around and play board games and stuff. I can see how this would benefit a person who has recently lost their vision, because they've just experienced a complete shattering of their confidence and self-esteem, and must learn new ways of doing everything. The other is called sensory training which is stupid because I have to do stuff like identify shapes and smells, solve puzzles, etc. There is also an eating skills class where we're shown the continental style of eating which I never heard of in my life until I came here. It's awkward but I guess it's useful for the simple fact my cutting skills suck, so I'm trying to get something out of it even if I don't go the whole 9 yards and use 2 utensils for everything I eat when I go home. But for every minor annoyance I've experienced, there is a positive thing to say. Household arts is probably my favorite class. I have a blind instructor, and she's the only blind instructor I ever had who didn't make me feel uncomfortable. When I attended CBVI, the program I spoke of earlier in this thread, the home management instructor was blind, and I didn't think she did a very good job. She didn't really know if I was doing something wrong, so I messed up a lot of things, including melting a spatula by accident while attempting to make French toast. While I never had any other blind instructors, the thought of the NFB hiring blind mobility teachers is off-putting, to put it lightly. But anyway, my household arts teacher is great. She somehow knows how to explain things to me just the right way, and she puts me at ease. Mobility is also good because I need some serious work with it, and my instructor is understanding of that fact. He's not like, "you've been blind all your life so you should know this that and the other thing." He understands that I've had a lot of shitty circumstances that were beyond my control which is why my travel skills have suffered so much. I'm rambling here, but my point is that the training here is highly individualized, the staff do their best to make you feel at ease, and you learn a lot in the process. Classes are from 8-4, but there are rare occasions when we get free periods. The only complaint I honestly have is the fact that this place is a drama magnet. It's been one thing after another since I got here, from a client disappearing for a few days (who I've become friends with, so I was really worried) to another who was loud, rude and obnoxious, but she left a few days after I got here, thank God, because she would have been my roommate, and I wouldn't have handled that very well. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you can find a good state agency, go for it. Sadly, though, this place is suffering financially, and they're going under fast from what I've been able to gather so far. I hope I'm wrong, but that's what happened to CBVI, and times are tough these days. I seriously hope it doesn't shut down though because that will be one less option people have, one step closer to desperate people being pushed into the NFB when they would really be more comfortable in a relaxed environment.
Ah, so that's why I haven't seen you on aim lately. Was wondering about thatt. Glad to see that your having a good time there though. I do remember that incident with the spatchula, still is amusing.
how is having blind instructors off putting, when they can totally understand what you're going through?
I disagree with that statement more than I can put into words, but to each their own.
Because there is a hierarchy, the softfoots want you to believe in the power of the elite. After all most elitism is totally superficial and artificial in nature: If you don't believe they're better, what they have falls apart, because with real measurements they might measure up.
That's my guess.
The merits of the instructor, blind, sighted, two-legged frog or otherwise, ought to be foremost. Not some artificially-created playpen theory dependent on hardware or lack thereof.
as someone who has had plenty of success with several blind instructors, I can honestly say I almost pity those who have negative misconceptions about it.
Well, as you said, to each their own, but my case in point was that the particular blind instructor I had was incompetent, at least in my opinion. But as I said, there are obviously good ones. I would never let a blind person teach me mobility though for the simple fact they might not be able to stop me from walking into oncoming traffic in time or something. But I think that's just my comfort level, and I'm a skeptic, so it doesn't bother me that other people are comfortable with it.
From reading this thread, my conclusion is that the problem with NFB is that they seem to have a one-size-fits-all approach. When I was teaching volunteers how to teach blind people, I taught them that like people who can see, blind people learn at different speeds, have preferred methods etc. Whether teaching blind or sighted people, the best teachers are the flexible teachers.
Indeed, but try to tell that to the robots.
the fact you think a blind instructor wouldn't be able to keep you from dangerous situations is simply a misconception.
for the record, I, too, had similar misconceptions before attending an nfb center. I'm thankful that has changed for the better, though.
I almost ran in front of a train once, and my blind cane travel instructor stopped me cause I didn't realize what I was doing till after the fact. so, that and many other situations related to travel and otherwise, proove that it can and will continue to be done successfully.
just my thoughts.
There are things sighted people would notice that blind people wouldn't, but once you've been instructed, if you're travelling independently and there is danger but no sighted people to tell you about it, you'll have to detect it yourself.
That's a good point, Senior, and I think you're absolutely right. However, while a person is learning skills and is more likely to walk into dangerous situations, a sighted person is probably better equipped to help them as they learn how to travel safely in their environment. Maybe there are exceptions, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with it.
NOr would I. I mean I liked the fact that a lot of my instructors up at the Boise branch of the Commission for the Blind were, in fact, blind. But I'm thankfl that the O&M instructors weren't. And while it wasn't an NFB training center it did have a strong NFB presence since a lot of instructors were members. Thankfully they weren't the sort that practiced the NFB's sometimes bizarre policies to the letter and tried to shove them down their students' throats. Not to say a blind person couldn't be an O&M instructor and do the job well, but I don't know that I'd feel comfortable with it myself anymore than I'd feel comfortable with a blind man performing a major surgery on me, although I've heard that this too has been done successfully.
it's ashame you all feel that way; that's all I'll say.
I agree with those who feel uncomfortable with blind mobility instructors. There are plenty of classes that the blind can teach. I just can't see mobility as being one of them, unless they're showing you around a building that they can easily navigate or with which they're familiar.
I had one experience with a blind mobility instructor and that was at the summer blind work program when I was in high school.I can't see what all the trouble here is: she was profoundly competent, blindness wasn't an issue. They provided a certain amount of time with an instructor on campus and she successfully did it in an hour. I'm not sure I could communicate that much relational data in a meaningful fashion in so little time, but then again instructor I am not. But impressed I was. Again, not on account of anyone's ability to perceive or interpret photons, but in the ability to do what one does. Big campus, almost no sidewalks, lots of open parking lots, buildings scattered everywhere like ginormous industrial turds dropped by a prehistoric raptor passing through: Got communicated in one hour.
With that level of innovative capacity, I imagine someone like that could probably readily solve the problems mentioned in earlier posts. It's only a matter of how, at that point.
I'm much less trusting of an individual who may have perfect sight, but whose ability to interpret what's around them is limited.
In reply to posts 240, 241, 242, 244:
Can you provide specific examples of hazardous situations that a blind instructor is not likely to notice? One could assume that, if the instructor is employed by a specific training center (or lives in a specific area, etc.), they would be familiar with most hazardous situations, would they not?
Taken from above:
So, here are some myths which are purely that, myths.
NFB center philosophy works under a one size fits all regime.
This is not true, as a very important part of how the centers portray their training is the idea of “transferable skills.” These are skills that can be, well, transferred from one area of life, to another, from one country to another, from cold weather to hot weather. In other words, these are skills which are learned through individual practice, trial and error, and helpful guidance which the student strongly relies on as they begin the program and les as they improve and move along. . You do not learn to follow particular routes to work for example, you learn to travel independently.
Me: however, you are restricted to the techniques and equipment they provide you. Any new ideas and suggestions from what I have seen are immediately rejected because again, it's not about what works best for you, it's what the philosophy is all about.
The NFB and its centers hate all non-long-non-white canes.
This is not true, as for training centers, the long white cane is preferred because it does not collapse easily like a telescopic cane, and it is longer and lighter than an aluminum cane, which might, for many people make travel allot faster and safer, as it covers allot more ground and can be more versatile. When you are not training, you are able to use whatever means of cane you wish.
Me: Any attempt to go to class with my WCIB cane was strongly discouraged. For me, it is a safety concern, but also is a personal preference. I want a cane that is stable sturdy. I can move very fast with a graphic cane. A training facility should ask what works best for you, and let you use what you want, but at the same time, provide helpful instruction based on your skill level.
The NFB hates gays!
Not true, there are many active gay members who attend the centers, and participate in all aspects of the organization. However, there is no official organized LGBT division currently active.
Me: This right here, "no glbt branch currently active" should tell you right there. I have heard from more than one person that homosexuality is not accepted. I will be inclined to believe that it is true.
NFB and its centers hate guide dog users!
Absolutely false…. The training centers are not against dogs, as I personally know of people who have attended the centers with their dogs, and the dogs didn’t complain at all. Also, NFB has national and state guide dog user divisions which are very active.
Me: The center I was at, discouraged dogs, which I suppose would take away all meaning of the training center, at least for the traveling aspect. Although one of the teachers had a guide dog and no one said anything so who knows.
NFB says, “If you don’t use a long straight white cane, you are hiding your blindness!”
Again, see above as to why the long white cane is preferred, it has nothing to do with hiding blindness. However, there are those who do use a folding or telescoping cane to avoid what they feel are social stigmas which come from “appearing blind.” And as always, there are bossy people around who like to tell others what is best for them, so…
Me: Well, yeah, it does. In fact, it's just about the majority of why they use it. they are militant and want people to put their blindness in others faces. After a while it just gets old. I know, doesn't make much sense, but this is what I've learned from the training center. When I tried to point out logical reasons why a standard cane is better, I got jumped all over. Literally yelled at. When I brought up the entire OSX review I got jumped all over. When I brought up situations why their philosophy did not make any sense I was literally yelled at. Which, for me, drove the point home even more than they are closed minded one size fits all.
I tends to be more uncomfortable with instructers who are totally blind in certain situations such as mobility. However if they have years and years under their belts of travel then it would ake me more comfortable. Also it would give more legitimacy to the training and would probably make more people inclined to go.
I'm still amazed this topic is still going. Dez has some good points as well. I have adopted a "I care but don't really give a shit" attitude over the past year and need to do what works for me.
Take care all,
Conner
I'm sorry, but requiring students to use only the techniques taught at the traning center and only those techniques does, in fact, come under the heading of one size fits all. It doesn't necessarily take long for a student to decide whether a given technique or type of cane is going to work for them. And if that's the case then evenw hile in training they should have the freedom to experiment and find something that works. And if they prefer a folding cane they should be free to continue to use them. I can understand the concerns about actual telescopic canes but a true folding cane isn't likely to collapse so easily. And I don't buy that bull about folding canes being an effort to hide your blindness. And yes, I have had confirmation fron of that from actual NFB members so it's not just a myth.
Even if people didn't automatically know that you were blind when they first met you, they'd know soon enough when they saw you pull out your cane. Plus, if they don't know that you're blind, they might be more willing to talk to you, and after an interesting conversation and getting to know you, they wouldn't have a problem once they saw the cane. So yet again, their so-called logic is faulty.
Yes, the NFB tends to be militant but the key is learning to avoid the androids. When you can do that, it's not all bad. The education philosophy sucks, however.
Well it seems like after reading all of the posts in this thread, we are mostly all preaching to the choir, and I believe the majority consensus says something about the nfb.
And from what I have seen, the a c b isn't much better.
Really? This is the first time I've heard complaints against the ACB.
They seem like a bunch of winers.
I'm with tif, I really haven't heard any complaints about the ACB.
The reason I say what I say is because I have seen the doctrine and it is not much better.
Zealots of all types are married to the idea of something, and oftentimes blissfully ignorant of practical outcomes. Hence you won't find them producing anything in the private sector most times. Who cares what the acronym is most times? They're like those wind-up chickens your parents used to get you for Easter when you were a little kid, the kind that just mindlessly hop along pecking until they ultimately crash or run down.
Some would argue the chicken has a purpose.
Wind-up chickens? Weird.
Yeah, I've never heard of those but I love mechanical things. Interesting.
I had a chicken on wheels and it made a clucking sound.
The ACB are a bunch of whiners. They're the kind of blind people who are still living with their parents when they're 30, and use the ACB and its functions as their only social outlets. They walk around with stains on their shirts and smell like they haven't bathed in weeks, you get the picture. My ex insisted on going to one of their meetings once, and since I had heard an NFB chapter met in the same building, I went along to make sure he wasn't somehow getting sucked into that bullshit. But needless to say, neither of us were impressed, and we never went back.
Wtf! Thanks a lot Screaming Turtle for somehow maybe with out knowing bashing the hell out of me! I'm over 30 and still living with my mom but believe me if things were different I would not live at home. So for now I live here but it's not by my own choice. Circumstances in my life have made it that way and I still haven't figure out a way out. I don't like the ACB either but my reason is because they gave me a scholarship and then the member that was suppose to send me the check stoll it and I had to fight for them to give me the scholarship after that.
The ACB as far as I know is fine, there isn't anything bad I've heard about them. They aren't the ones promoting strict life guidelines one must follow in order to live, or so it is said. They just teach you how to do things and let you decide how to apply it to your life. The NFB is like going to a theropist for marage counseling, and the guy just sits there yelling at you about how much marage is bad and you shouldn't get married, while the ACB is like going to a counselor who sits there and tells you the different ways you can manage any issues you may be having. This is the best comparison I can think of, other than the fact that I'm sitting in psychology and it sounded good at the time. But at the end of the day, everyone has their own opinion about these different organizations, and one needs to make up their own mind about it. But I think this thread points out the painfully obvious truth. Dez is right as well as most of the other ones on this board. And also bare in mind many of these people have had personal experience.
The N F B isn't all bad as I think I've stated. In fact, in my state we have some good survices. However I don't like the mindless drones that often make up the n f b at large.
Agreed. I've met both ACB and NFB members who are both independent and not members of the borg collective. I attended the Chriss Cole rehab center in Texas, which is run by the NFB at this point. While I got a lot out of the training, I have one constructive criticism - the leaders of their seminars (basically group therapy sessions) need to show more understanding towards those of us who were born blind. They already do a lot to encourage people who just lost their sight, which is good. However, in the rare case when someone blind from birth arrives at the center, the councilors might want to consider keeping him/her out of seminar altogether. Speaking from personal experience, sitting in a room full of people who have just lost something I have never had and who are telling me there's something wrong with me for not being able to completely relate to then is not helpful. Not everyone needs blindness therapy, and for that matter, not everyone needs Braille class. I love to read and was shocked when one of the staff said they had to make sure I didn't forget how. I wonder how many sighted adults get told that. Though it's a decent program, they need to keep in mind that what benefits 99 students may be useless for the 100th.
Verry well said. I used to get that jive about don't forget braille. Uh, I've been reading braille since first grade at least.
How can you forget braille if you've been using it since you were five and in kinndergarden. I can't. That's like telling someone sighted that they need to keep up there hand writing otherwise they will forget how to write and form the letters.
Agreed. You can't, any more than someone forgets print.
Your speed could slow down, but as to how that impairs you, only your paycheck and the tax man knoweth.
It's not just NFB and ACB types: All political and religious groups have their zealots. And some people generally get so sold on a cause or a turd, er, I mean movement, that they forget everything else ... and become about useless, except as general entertainment at the bar.
Catching up on this thread again, I have 2 things to say.
Persevere Warrior, I was by no means bashing you. I was bashing people who are just too damn lazy to move out and make something of themselves. If a person truly doesn't have the resources to leave home that's different than someone who mooches off the system because they think the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. Also, there is no excuse for bad hygiene, whether you're blind or sighted, as long as you're physically capable of taking care of yourself you should be presentable. And I'm aware that there are plenty of sighted people who don't bother to bathe and walk around looking trashy too, so it's not just a blind thing, but I just can't stand bad hygiene in general. I should also point out that I'm sure all of the ACB's members aren't like that, and, as I haven't done much research on their philosophy or mission statement or any of that, it's very possible that the off-putting experience I had was just a product of the people who went to that particular meeting. This was in Philadelphia, after all.
To Voyager: That's pretty ass backwards. While being born blind does present its own set of issues, trying to empathize with those who have just lost their sight can be tough, and even a little intimidating. You might understand the problems that go along with not having sight, but, as you said, you can't miss what you never had in the same way. It would definitely be an uncomfortable situation to be in, especially if the group facilitator was being an asshole about your discomfort. As I said, I'm currently attending a training center, and right now we have a couple new clients who recently lost their sight. The clients who were here before, who are my good friends now, were all blind from birth except for one guy who progressively lost his sight until he was 16, and then he went completely blind, but that's beside the point. Anyway, when we had our group meetings, we could all relate to each other, so we all felt comfortable discussing our experiences and such. Now, with these 2 new guys, I keep my mouth shut and let them talk, because I feel they need to get a lot more stuff off their chests than I do, and I really can't relate to that struggle. I've never lost a sense, so how could I know? So I definitely understand where you're coming from with that.
Yeah I know Screaming Turtle I know that you weren't intentionally bashing me. I was just sensitive at that particular moment. I also really can't stand people that mooch off the system because they think the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. I also can't stand people that have bad hygiene especially if there blind because in some way that makes the people that are blind with good hygiene look bad and The blind are the minority among the sighted.
agree with that one.
It only makes you look bad if you let it get to you. I used to have that mentality, but the more I thought about it, the more of an NFB school of thought it appeared to be. You don't represent an entire group. No one person has to pave the way to a revolution.
Sounds a bit like comunism doesn't it?
Hmm,
Honestly, I have to disagree with most of this. WThe insulting thing is not that the bus driver wants you to sit in front, but the fact that the driver is willing to kick an 89 year old woman who is pulling around her pace maker just to let you sit there is what bothers me. 2nd off, I am not a member of the NFB nor do I believe that they represent me or I represent them simply because I travel with a long cane. I just find it more convenient in the sense of travel, I did find it annoying that my cane kept jabbing me in my stomach constantly, but after I asked a couple of people I learned there is a simple technique to get rid of that. Simply rotate the cane handle in your hand as you travel, sounds too easy? Well, honestly it is that easy. Secondly the longer reach gives you more of a reaction time for when stairs or curves come up, the pencil grip is a great way of dealing with tight knit corridors and other crowded areas. Honestly, the only thing a folding cane has over the long cane is how easy it is to stow. I prefer convenience when I travel over convenience when i'm sitting.
All opinion, but there is nothing more embarrassing then get your cane stuck in the snow and almost falling because it starts unfolding... Everyone can enjoy there folding cane I love my long one...
oh and p.s... them pushing not to ask questions?
b.s, the first thing I learned after learning how to use the cane was how to ask questions.... and as for sighted guide? they are only aginst students using sighted guide because they want them to be able to use what they've learned.. The NFB president Sour mour uses sighted guide, if it was really that banished, why would the person who represents the entire NFB organization use it?... Just clearing up some of these misunderstandings....
The issue wasn't that the NFB is always against sighted guide. The issue was that someone walked up to a prospective student and pried the person's hand from their family member or whoever it was arm. I could be wrong, it's been awhile since this thread came up, but I seem to remember that. In that case, that's not only invasion of personal space, but who the hell is this self-righteous asshole to say how I can make an entrance into their training center? If the person is newly blind, they probably don't know how to use a cane yet. Should they be made to feel like shit the second they get there for something that's not their fault?
As to why the president of the NFB would use sighted guide it's a simple word. Hypocrisy. We see that everywhere in life. An I agree with the last poster. It's one thing to disallow te se of sighted guide when someone's officially in yor training center, but to walk up and pry the person's hand off their guide's arm is unacceptable, especially if, as was stated, said person doesn't yet know how to use a cane. As for te canes and convenience thing I preferboth convenience when I travel and when I'm sitting. And I've never had a cane fold up while walking...well except those telescopic ones. I have had a few folding canes fall apart but those occurrences have been very rare and only after I'd used each cane for quite a number of years. So I still don't think the NFB's policy against them makes much sense.
Yeah, I've always used folding canes and have rarely had a problem. I prefer the graphite canes, and they seem much more sturdy than the alluminum ones, but that's just my opinion. I see people replacing alluminum canes far more often, not to mention they're way more likely to stick when it's cold outside.
I agree. Graphite all the way. I used straight canes for a while but I finally got fed up and browbeat my O&M instructor at the time into letting me switch to a folding one. It was a later instructor who switched me over to graphite since no matter how careful I was my aluminum cane ALWAYS acquired what he jokingly referred to as "a natural bend" sooner or later. I did have a graphite cane actually break on me but that happened only once and I suspect it was a joint and not the cane itself. It happened when a guy tripped over it in the locker room in High School while I was on my way out to go to my next class. and that was the only time it's happened. So those canes are pretty damn sturdy. Like I said I've had a few fall apart but that was te elastic inside finally wearing out after about five years or so of use, and that's at the low end of the scale. That's why I try to make a point to have a spare. And if I was in college I'd carry said spare in my backpack as a precaution in case that did happen. And as for storing the cane I have a leather holster I strap to my belt. And the leather ones are pretty tough as well. I've had this one for about ten years, and while it's definitely worn it's still in excellent working condition.
I know this post is old but I wish to comment on the sited guide issue.
To be fare, the nfb is not 100% against sited guide. Many of them say, use what works but don't always cling to a person. I have my issues with the nfb, however I am deeply involved in it and as long as you avoid the robots you are fine.
So how does one become involved in it and avoid the bullshit? This is a serious question, I don't mean anything hostile by it. I'm just curious to know what inspired you to become a member of an organization with admittedly questionable practices.
As to the sighted guide issue, I agree that you shouldn't use it as your main mode of travel, unless you're newly blind and haven't had any experience with a cane or dog thus far. However, to shun people for using it in an unfamiliar environment, or a very crowded area, does seem pretty stupid to me.
Because they do things I do agree with. And when I come across the bullshit I simply laugh and don't associate with it.
Straightforward and to the point. Good stuff.
Brainwashing only happens when you let it. :)
Or if your folks get caught up in it when you're still young enough to be subject to them. Thankfully mine had and still have a reasonable amount of common sense and so I was allowed within reason to decide for myself.
I will admit one thing though. I'm on some of the listservs, both for the NFB and ACB, just to see how general discussions differ in the two groups. Scoping out meetings would probably be a more realistic approach, but I did go to an ACB meeting once and really have no desire to go to an NFB meeting, even though someone who works at my local OVR office actually called me one day to try to convince me to join the NFB. I found that laughable. If they're really that desperate for membership, it just proves one thing: they're on the decline, and that's a good thing. But anyway, on the listservs, it's really a lot of normal conversation, which does support what some others have said on this board, there are the radicals and then there are normal people. For the most part, the radical views are not what's expressed on the listservs, in fact very little time is actually spent talking about policy for either organization, nor hot button issues that cause people to become as disgusted as most of us on this thread. I did actually download that Freedom for the Blind Book because I'm curious to know what's in it that sparked so much hatred. Hey, knowledge is power, right? This is the type of stuff I really should have been doing 2 years ago when this thread started, instead of being ruled solely by an emotional response. But oh well, a lot can happen in 2 years.
They shouldn't have recruited you like that. Nobody has to join anything. My advice would be check out a meeting and if you don't like it, never come back. If they want you to pay your dews just say you just want to observe for the day.
Bumping this topic up again, because I have something else to say about a recent experience I had on an NFB listserv. I won't say which, and I won't mention names. What I will post is an email I wrote, and a response I got. Now, understand this. The discussion was already heating up when I wrote this. The way I said things might have been harsh, and there was probably another way I should have went about it. However, I do not apologize for what I said, and my resolve is stronger now that I got the response I got. So, here's the email:
I attended a training center that was non-NFB affiliated, and despite
what some of you may think, it was actually very helpful to me. The
problem was, as soon as I returned home, I could no longer use a lot
of those skills. Mobility, which has never been my strong point, was
built up only to crumble, because there's nothing for me to walk to
except maybe some farms, and why would I do that? The nearest grocery
store is about 5 miles away. As for other skills, like cooking, those
are things I could do but choose not to at this point. What's the
point when I'll only get criticized for it anyway?
As for attending an NFB training center, let me make a couple points
none of you will like:
1. I will not go to a place called Blind, Inc. I'm not a sum of broken
parts on an assembly line, waiting to be swept back together into a
neat, politically correct, socially acceptable,
oh-so-cool-and-collected package. I'm me, no matter what my flaws are,
and no one size fits all model is going to change that. Anyone with
half a brain should see something wrong with the name of the center
alone!
2. I use a standard folding graphite cane. I do not fold my cane to
hide my blindness, rather, because in places like movie theaters, the
long cane is a tripping hazard. I exercise a little thing called
common courtesy in these situations. It would be idiotic to try to
hide my blindness, seeing as how I only have light perception, and
trying to walk without a cane would not only be dangerous but
pointless. I like my graphite cane, and have ever since I started
using it; as long as I'm traveling safely and efficiently with it,
which I've been told I do, mind your own damn business about what I
prefer.
3. Having been totally blind since birth, I'm fluent in Braille. I do,
in fact, hate audio books, preferring to download books from Bookshare
or Web Braille or using a good old-fashioned hardcopy whenever
possible. While I'm not wonderful at it, even my knowledge of the
slate and stylus probably goes a lot farther than the current
generation of IKids, kids who are so absorbed in the wonders of this
new technology that they probably never will learn Braille, to which I
say, I feel sorry for them.
4. Since I only have light perception, why should I *have* to wear
blindfolds in training? (FYI, I won't call them sleep shades, because
I prefer to call things what they are, stigma and all, to make my
point. And anyway, if they're sleep shades, you're basically giving
the student a license to not take them seriously. Congratulations!) If
your goal is to integrate someone into the real world, how does making
them stumble around on public transportation with blindfolds on
accomplish this? Surely people will stare 10 times more than they
ordinarily would at a cane or a dog alone. It's degrading to put
someone through that, especially if they're newly blind.
And my final point:
5. I do not trust a blind mobility instructor. There are certain
things that we, the blind, should not be doing, such as driving buses,
flying planes, and yes, being mobility instructors. Now, working with
someone like me, I could sort of see it--I know the ropes, so to
speak, so the danger level is much reduced. What truly chills my soul
is the thought of a blind O&M instructor working with young children.
As we all know, a kid might dart into a street without even thinking,
vision or no vision, not anticipate a large drop or flight of stairs,
run full speed into walls, the list is endless. And you, as a blind
person, are ok with being powerless to prevent serious injury and
maybe even death? That makes me sick.
That's it for my rant; now I'm making good on my promise to leave
before I'm forcibly dragged away and subjected to a public execution.
But wait, no, you won't even stoop to my level. What if the big bad
employer decides to search for all of your names tomorrow? You won't
allow yourselves to get any blood on your hands, while I will never
get a job in my life now because I've said this. These lists are
archived for Google searching, right? Of course they are, what am I
saying, everything is nowadays. But don't worry, the fault is mine and
mine alone. I started it, and I ended it.
I did leave the list promptly after sending this, as I said I would, but was watching the archives for the shit storm that I thought would follow, despite my gut feeling that there would be none. And there wasn't, per se, just this one response:
My immediate reaction is of course to jump to the defense of the NFB
and our affiliated training centers. However, I don't think you
would buy it anyway, and that really isn't the point.
It seems to me that you are saying -- this is the way it is, and it
is going to be this way for a long time. Indeed, this is true, until
you decide things need to be different.
Also, it seems to me that the system has convinced you of the
relative worthlessness of blind persons and what we have done for
ourselves. For this I am sorry. You don't trust blind travel
teachers, and condemn a system developed by blind persons. I realize
that our approach isn't for everybody, and shouldn't be the only
approach out there, but for many it truly does work -- it changes
people's lives. However, the system has drummed into your head that
blind people are less, and you, and your parents have bought into it.
I know you won't see it my way -- and I may not have all of it right
-- but I hope you do think about what I have said.
Oh, I thought about it, all right: why would a professional so coolly dance around the issues I raised? Rather than honestly debate the merit of my words, this person skillfully conveyed that I'm right. If I am to be proven wrong, do it in an intelligent way. Clearly, his "edfense" is clearly rooted in political interests. In fact, when I went back to the website today to retrieve the messages in question, I half expected them to be gone. They weren't, though, and now I'm sharing them with all of you to discuss.
Why does the response upset you? He (or she) seemed verry open minded. They said, "hey, we are the N F B and we aren't perfect." Are you just trying to pick a fight? I don't quite see where you are headed here.
Admittedly, I didn't include the rest of the thread here, because it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. However, if this person truly wanted to dispel what I was saying--and I have reason to believe he's a high-ranking member somewhere in the organization--he would have calmly explained where I was wrong, not simply said, oh, I want to defend them, but I won't. That's just being childish, and furthermore demonstrates that he either A. knows I'm right and doesn't want to admit it or B. doesn't want to get his hands dirty as I said.
I'm all for a good debate. If there had been a thoughtful response given to me, I would have came back to the list, apologized, and then debated the matter in a civilized fashion.
Honestly, I probably would have responded in a similar matter. , if i'd seen that on a list, i'd have thought you were trolling, and thus didn't want a logical response. Look at the way you communicated, as well as the way you managed to put your thoughts down on paper. Nothing about it really gave me the sense you were seaking understanding at all.
I'm a prowd graduate of the louisiana center for the blind, and will gladly answer any of your questions, but tha'ts if you truely have a genuine interest. If your goal is simply to troll or to pick apart anything I put forward, rather than looking at it with an open mind, I probably won't bother, because i've got better things to do with my time. Its not even anything personal against you or anyone else. Its just a matter of not talking to a brick wall.
Though before I go, I will clear up one point you have completely wrong. If one has no vision, they logicly will not be asked to ware the shades. How ever, if one has light perception or greater, its usually a requirement.
I will answer NFB related questions, as well as questions about the training, but before asking any questions, consider not only what you want to know, but why you want to know it. Are you just trolling, or are you really going to attempt to keep an open mind, and hear me out.
I see nothing wrong with that response. It is clear from your message that you are completely opposed to the NFB and its methods. What's the point of anyone trying to convince you otherwise? You're message seems hostile and reads like you're just looking for a fight. Most of your points are based on the presumption that the blind are screwed and it is what it is. There's really no point to a discussion of NFB philosophy unless you become more open minded about your personal view of blindness and the capabilities of the blind in general. I'd have better luck trying to convince my dog to become a cat than trying to convince you that your perceptions of the NFB are incorrect.
I'm also not sure why you think that being invited to become involved in the NFB by a VR counselor indicates that the organization is desperate and on the decline. How is any organization supposed to grow if it doesn't reach out and invite new members? I get invited to different kinds of stuff all the time. I either go or don't go. Never have I assumed the invitations to indicate desperation on the part of the particular group. Your childish delight in what you perceive to be the decline of the NFB is completely irrational. You are so wrapped up in hating the NFB that intellegent discussion doesn't seem possible.
very well said, TTB; couldn't have said it better myself.
There are pros and cons to each organization. Let's not get too wrapped up in trying to oppose the NFB just because you don't like it. Think about other people who may have had their lives changed for the better because of the NFB. I don't like some of the stuff either, but the NFB does have some strengths, and I think it's best that we take those in to account.
I tend to agree. I think the responder seemed quite fair in their responses.
And, I've got what some would call pretty extreme views on lockup facilities who control people in one form or another, people who have not committed crimes.
We've had our trouble out here with some religion-based drug rehab places, and some patrons or inmates or whatever, being found dead. So yeah, so yeah, like some talk about the blind having lost a good first impression, any of those types of places have lost a good impression on me forever. So much so that if I had a family member who was insistent on going to any such lockup whatever they portend to rrehab people from, I would buy two pre-paid cell phones. One the family member would get, with one number on speed dial, and that number would be for the other phone.
That other phone would stay in my pocket, and one call is all it would take. I'd call ahead to request a local police civil standby, and then bring enough budddies along to get the job done: sweep and clear and get the family member outa there: no squalling tolerated from the so-called keepers, just in and out, bring the person back home.
Even with that sort of so-called extreme attitude of mine, I will say I find the email response from them to you to be completely fair. Can they justify themselves to you? Probably not: them types of places out here have had no luck in their forms of justification either. But that doesn't mean their response wasn't fair. As to the dogma in the response? What else: All them types of lockup places do that.
Honestly, if you really want assistance learning some things, go to some relatively local place where it's either a normal place where you take classes by day, or a open facility where you just come and go as you please when not on duty for classes. Of course an isolated insular place far away from your home environment won't teach you how to do what you need to do at home. That's like saying because a guy can behave well in prison he'll make a great next-door neighbor. Again, out here, we've had all sorts of trouble with those types of places so-called rehabbing people only to have them totally inept once they're outside that insular environment. Months in a box like that does things to you, in my opinion. But their email response was just a company response, no more, no less, in my opinion.
And just so you know, your conclusion about the NFB being desperate and on the decline is childish. How can people be stupid enough to come up with a conclusion like that when they're only trying to find new members so they can build a relationship?
I understand you not liking the nfb; they do alot of bad stuff for the blind. However, they also do good things for the blind. For instance, we fight to get braille in the schools and I see that as a damn good thing. I think some people just want to fight about things. If I don't like something we are doing in the federation I will kindly point it out and explain my possition. That is the reasonable, adult way to handle such a situation.
How else do you get the hard questions answered if you don't challenge them? How else do you get someone to admit they could be, not necessarily always are, but could be, wrong in their approach? Are you people honestly so arrogant as to believe you and your precious organization are always right? That sounds an awful lot like religious tripe to me. You believe it works for all because it works for you. Well, good for you, I really don't give a damn whether it works for you. Christianity works for some people too, just as atheism, Islam or any other religion works for others.
Did I admit I might have been wrong in my approach? I believe I said that twice. However, when I want answers, I'll stop at nothing to get them. Contrary to what you all think, I drive a point home, sometimes deliberately in a provocative way, to get results. Is that right? Not in all situations. Was it right in this one? As I said, I believe it was. If this person was truly on the defensive, and was so proud, he would have pointed out exactly where I was wrong, perhaps in a similarly argumentative fashion. So, yes, I do want to hear what the people on the other side of the fence are screaming about. You're the childish ones if you can't grow a pair of nuts and take what I dish out, unless what I'm saying really is true, and you don't want to be wrong.
F&R, this bitter attitude is exactly what TTB was referring to. you're clearly set in your opinion that the NFB as a whole is worthless, so anyone taking the time to explain things to you would simply be equivalent to talking to a brick wall.
But did I ever say the NFB is the way to go? No, I didn't, nor do I agree that the NFB is the way to go. But for you to completely oppose the NFB and belittle this organization isn't right. This has been going on since 1940, and your perceptions and conclusions have no evidence to back them up. Right now, there are thousands of blind people who are members of that organization. And there are people out there who want this organization to grow, which is why they go out and look for members. It's just like any other organization. So for you to be completely ignorant and say that it's on the decline and they are in desperate need of people is absolutely insane. But for me, personally, I don't believe you have to be involved in an organization to promote your blindness. I personally don't want to be totally involved in the NFB because I feel that tehy can be way too outspoken and they sue a bunch of businesses over a bunch of crap. Now I understand that we as blind people want things to be accessible, but why waste money suing somebody over nothing when you could have used that money for something else? It's almost like, "We're blind people and this is our world. You're going to listen to us or we're going to sue you." Do any of you think that that's a stupid approach?
Honestly, looking at your history of posts, not least your last reply, I'm drowning in an overwelming sense that clairity is not what you seak. You don't seem to truely want to confront the situation in productive ways, or you'd dispense with the trolling. I'm confounded by the idea that one is so immotionally charged by something they clearly understand so little. I'll stress again, I don't mind clearing up misconceptions, but I don't want to feed a troll either.
So, what platitudes define your interest in this subject? Do you seek immotionally fueled discorse, or do you seek others viewpoints.
If its option 1, I'd quit while you're ahead. Take what you can from the things you like in life, and find something that makes you happy. Forget all these notions you burden yourself with, and move on.
If option 2, take a step back, lay down the hate and anger that rule you. Until you do, you will never be able to consider anything with any objectivity at all. Thus, it would be like one trying to speak to a brick wall.
I don't know about you, but I have better things to do with my time. As should you.
I'm not copping out, and I'm not giving in, but I have no reason to drop to your level of insulting slander.
I never acted as though one way is better for all than any other, and i'll gladly admit that I believe choice is a good thing. It might possibly be you that is so set in there ways, that they can't even begin to see the good in anything else(pot meet kettle).
Which ever option you pick, means little to us, or the world in the end. But if you can't keep an open mind, i'm sure that will define who you are in the eyes of many to come.
Picking a position and sticking with it is one thing, but most rely on educated material before locking in.
Seeing how many things you've got wrong, its clear you haven't done your homework.
Before you even post back here, how about you consider doing so?
@ Leo, the problem starts when most of these state centers have policies like those you fear.
I can personally speak to the fact that LCB does not make any attempt to hold people in the program who are not feeling its what they need/want.
In the end, all they want is to help people achieve their life goals by giving them the skills required. That being the case, they stress that everyone should have choice to find what works and doesn't for them, on a case by case basis.
It really doesn't affect me one way or the other what people on a forum think. I don't know you, and you don't know me. So before jumping to conclusions about me, when you've never met me in your life, think about how ridiculous you make yourself sound by doing so.
I think I mentioned about a hundred posts back or so that there was a time I was considering going to an nfb training center. Before I did that, I wanted clarification on things I had heard about their policies. I called someone at the main headquarters, I honestly don't remember who it was. Now of course you'll say, well, you're obviously making it up if you don't remember. And you know what, I don't care if you do, because, like I said, this is an online community, and one I've remained pretty detached from despite being a part of it for 8 years. Anyway, I left a message on this person's voicemail, asking politely (again, I don't care if you think I'm incapable of politeness or not) for information regarding their policies on their training philosophy, and structured discovery. I didn't get a call back. Why? Because they're afraid. They're afraid to let someone in who knows what they want, and wants to be treated with respect. Furthermore, their website says nothing about the matter, either. So, how about you telling me where I might find the materials to make an informed decision, instead of spouting off bullshit about how you think I'm worthless and bitter? Does it really feel that good to try to virtually tear someone down? If it does, you're wasting your time just as much as you claim I am.
So, I resorted to extreme measures to get answers. Who hasn't, at some point? Call me a troll if you must, maybe I am clubbing you all over the head for answers. It doesn't bother me.
One mor point: I personally know the person who started this thread. He wouldn't lie about what happened to him. His getting banned from this website doesn't dispute his credibility, either.
The point that I think James is getting at is that you shouldn't make such judgments just because of hearsay. If he never called you back, how come you didn't call him back? Just because he never called you back doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't respect you or something like that. It's jumping to conclusions so fast that's the problem.
Illumination, ok I can understand that. You and Leo Guardian are the only two people who are acting civilized on this thread anymore, so I'm more inclined to listen to what you say. The reason I didn't call back was because I really didn't see a point at that time. It wasn't high on my priorities list. I forget if that happened before or after this thread was started, but truthfully, when I saw the direction this thread was going, I abandoned any pretense about my general sense of unease when being around nfb members. I've known a few in my time, and they all seemed very arrogant to me. Which brings me to another point: the two people who are actually trying to be rational about what I've said, they're not NFB members. Hmmm, seems to me like I'm seeing a bit more of that arrogance from the ones who are. If you want to call me out on a point, fine, do it. Like I said, unlike some of you, I can take it. But to make judgments and basically tell me to get a life for having an opinion, albeit a strong one, that's a little uch. You want to fling mud through cyberspace? Well, I can fling it right back.
I'm extremely confused, if anything, its you that has ramped up the immotional level here.
Case in point, I didn't make things personal, I just tried to explain why someone wouldn't be inclined to give you the time of day. I'm not sure how you can look at the majority of your posts and call them non confrontational or devoid of rudeness. So, in short, i'm completely lost for words here. I gave you the oppertunity to ask questions and speak rationally, but seriously, i'm not sure what you want to get out of this. I'm not even sure if you're really committed to anything other than trolling.
So, this is apairently where things stand.
either 1, you're holding everyone else up to a standard you yourself don't feel justified in living up to, or 2. there's a huge missunderstanding you haven't bothered to clean up. When you put immotion aside, you can't objectively look at how you have chosen to deal with the situation and come to the conclusion you're making a rational attempt. Thus, I don't understand how I have egg on my face, when you seem to imply yours is clean.
I'm not sure continuing to reply to this is remotely worth my time. You're chained by conceptions not only of me, but of organizations to such a degree i'm really not sure what can be gained out of this for you.
At this point, you have already chosen to brand me with assumptions and conclusions you have no support for. How its possible you can come to the correct conclusions is unknown to me, considering how little you know of where I stand, and my thoughts on the NFB.
You might just not like my abruptness, or honesty, and that's ok. Though in future, please dispense with the tough talk if you can't take it.
Climb out of your pot, and stop calling the kettle black. It does you no favours.
I'll stress again, that i'm willing to answer any questions you may have, but either we're getting down to the details or we're not, your choice.
To troll or not to troll. Only you can make that call.
Look, I agree that the nfb has several problems. We should be ashamed of the way we handle certain things. However, don't sit there and argue in a circle with people who are trying to reason with you. It seems to me that you just want to fight. What good does that do?
Ok, Stormwing, let me see if I can even begin to try to untangle your last post.
First of all, I never claimed I wasn't being confrontational. I think I've said at least 3 times now that if at first you don't succeed, try again. While I may have had preconceptions--and misconceptions, if you want me to pretend to agree with you for a moment--about the NFB, I did try to get information in the past. When that failed, and when this thread began, I'll admit, sure, it did blacken whatever uncertainties I had in my mind. You haven't addressed the point I made in my last post concerning the fact that I was friends with the person who started this thread. We have fallen out of touch, but I'm absolutely certain he didn't lie about this. How do you justify that?
Second, he, and others on this thread, were being confrontational as well. How am I worse than them in that sense?
Third, you seem to say in your last post that if you clear up my misconceptions, and I "see the light" so to speak, I'll automatically agree with you. What if I do open my mind, listen to what you have to say, and I still choose to disagree? What will you say then? Your arrogance is still shining through in your statement of faith. I don't believe that everyone needs to be part of an organization for the blind to be productive or respectable, just as I don't believe people need to be members of organized religion, or minority groups or what have you, to achieve their calling, whatever it may be. Even if you manage to clear up everything I've said here, and I recant each and every statement I've made, I am still unwilling to join either organization. I'm just not that kind of person.
Last but not least, I want to address your point about not living up to the standards you, or the NFB, or even the ACB or the blind community at large have set. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure seems like that's what you've said. Now, whatever happened to setting your own standards? As long as what you're doing isn't immoral or illegal, why should it matter how you measure up? If I wanted to be an engineer or a scientist, I would. I don't need the NFB to tell me I can, and even more importantly, should be those things. So exactly what standards are you setting? What standards am I just too pathetic to live up to?
One more thing I forgot to mention: don't accuse me of whining. I wouldn't be playing with the big dogs if I didn't expect to get bitten. If it makes you feel good to imagine me cowering in a corner sucking my thumb, go on and think that. The idea is laughable.
As to the calling back, I presume the NFB is a national organization. I used to think international, but apparently just national. Even so, it's very large, probably they get hundreds of calls per day, and huge boehemeth organizations don't do follow-up, except from the recruitment offices.
You have to give them a reason to follow up. It is encumbent on the individual to do the follow-up if it is that important.
As to the so-called desperation, welcome to the world of recruiting. I guess you're going to call us in the Coast Guard desperate too, since we're at your schools, your boat shows, your waterfront events, putting out info shamelessly recruiting new people, and shamelessly passing out information on how people can keep themselves safe and the water clean.
We're not the only ones. All sorts of organizations from military, to government, to schools, to interest groups like the NFB, do their share of recruiting. You'd have to assume the NFB believes they're right.
I know I believe we in the Coast Guard are right, even though there are people who are quite hostile to us because of environmental regulations, or because they believe we shouldn't interfere with their free activities on the water. I understand we have a uniform and a duty that an interest group like the NFB does not. But both of us share one thing in common, and in common with any other cohesive group: We're fully convinced we're right on some things, and for us with those things there's just no compromise.
To us, people who dump the results of the port-o-potty into your lake, river or oceans, are not disposing of waste differently. They're being irresponsible.
The difference is, unless you allow it, the NFB cannot regulate what you do with your cane or what public safety measures responsible Americans put in place for blind and older Americans. I profoundly disagree with some of their claims, just as I would profoundly disagree with any group who claimed our efforts out here to put in bike lanes make cyclists too dependent. Said types of claims are foolish and could only come from a bunch of college protesters who aren't old enough yet to have put down roots or have a direct investment in their community.
But that doesn't make them unfair. Very inept, in my opinion. But being inept isn't a crime.
But groups of any sort is why we don't go sailing off to another state, without a safety mechanism, to be locked (virtually or otherwise) into a program where you don't have a proper way out. My opinion? If you are having trouble walking across the street with your cane, you have no business taking off in a commercial aircraft unassisted to another state for any sort of program be it blind, drug, or otherwise. If you're emotionally vulnerable, now is not the time to go pay big money to sail off isolated to some retreat someplace with a bunch of self-accreditted folks who claim they can help you.
Get your help where you're at. Or, move to a city where you can get that assistance. You are the one who needs to take control. Until they do anything contrary to the law and get prosecuted, they're free to operate just like all these other types of facilities out there do. Ultimately, for you, it is your responsibility.
As it is mine, if they come out here and oppose audio walk signals today, and bike paths tomorrow, on the basis of so-called dependence and so-called reliance. You or I can't blame them for being them: all any of us can do is take care of us and our communities. It's up to those special interest groups to convince the rest of us why we should even give them an audience, and pass their bills, or have our city councils conform to them. If groups like them can convince the rest of us that public safety measures like bike paths, audible street lamps, and any number of other things make people too dependent, go them. They can join with the young men of the early 90s who opposed the seatbelt and helmet laws, on similar foolish grounds. I were one, I know.
But if you're not confident in your ability to travel, in my opinion you have absolutely no business packing it up and flying off to a strange facility in another state, away from your father or whoever you may look to in your area for any form of guidance, without the ability to drop and run on a dime if you need to. This is not a blind thing: it's the sort of thing we tell young people who want to join any sort of extreme religious or other group for a 9-month, 18-month, 2-year or other type program. This is not rocket science. It's obvious this is very different than taking off and going to college in another state, with a fully accreditted institution. But even though some on this site might find my perspective unreasonable, I would by no means say they treated you unfairly. This is how organizations, and in particular special interest organizations, operate.
Well said leo, however I must point out that the nfb does not actively recruit.
I'm not pushing for conformity, I'm not pushing for an one size fits all mentality, and I have already stated I don't believe a system like the one that the 3 *official* centers practice is correct or even useful to everyone. Even they don't pretend they are the end all be all, and from the director on down, they all will admit that different approaches work better for different people.
the problem (as I've stated before on this topic), is that many states take bits and peaces of the "nfb way" and remix it for their own good. So, in the end, you have a state run or even privately owned facility using bits and pieces of a philosophy they don't really understand to attract potential clients. It creats situations like this one, where people get a false understanding of what the organization is and what it stands for based on these practices.
There is something very wrong with this approach.Not least because the people who have remixed the concepts don't understand the principles behind them, much less how things all work together. So, they mix in there take on it. In the end, you're left with a mess.
Alot of centers falsely try to represent themselves as being NFB connected, much less being based on NFB philosophy. It makes those who work at, and have graduated from the real NFB centers unhappy, because things are so misrepresented. Thus, its completely possible that your friend had the right of that particular situation, with out having the correct grasp of what was and wasn't actually the "NFB way."
So, now that we've gotten the only factual point of contention out of the way, Lets take a look at your grandiose fluff.
For starters, i've never implied that you would "see the light" if you were given enough information. I only stated you'd actually have the ability to make an informed ane rational choice based on correct information. Basicly, what i'm driving at is that yourlack of education on the subject makes you as able to make an informed choice about this subject as voters in the deep south thinking Obama practices islam will be able to vote based on the truth.
there are several ways to become more informed, from talking to people to doing the research, but the majority of that musth take place in a way that actually leads to the provision of solid facts and information. Leo was quite correct in saying that if you wanted the information, there are plenty of ways to educate yourself.
Consider the call you made, think about the questions you asked, and the way you communicated. Were you approaching it from an open perspective seaking answers, or from the perspective of a troll. Wanting some information to an extent, but wanting to sturr the pot more than anything else?
Judging by the way you reached out to that NFB list, and the ways in which you've atempted to deal with any other people as related to this subject, i'd bet good money you approached from position two.
And as i've pointed out before, Who wants to feed the troll? You're likely to get from a situation what you put in to it. Unless you lack the ability to actually communicate, or you're not approaching from your real position, people should be able to read you well enough to figure out what your motives are.
Just for the record, I never have once made an attempt to do anything more than point out that you're uneducated on the subject matter, and should learn more before making choices and spouting off your tripe to others that will be imotionally guided by the words you speak, and the falsehoods you seem to hold so truely.
Though when you look at this logicly, again you can only come to the conclusion that your immotions ruel you here, so you'll never be able to actually figure things out for yourself until you learn hwo to master yourself.
Though seeing as you see no good in any organized movement of any kind, why are you so caught up in this? Further more, why did you bother to ask questions if you are approaching from the stanse that nothing anyone else can say is enough to make me rethink?
I'm far from a mindless nfb shill. There are aspects that I dislike. Look at most organizations, there are free thinkers in most, everyone has their own ideas of how, what and why things should be as they are.
On some levels, I think its easier for you to just assume that people with any level of connection to the organization at all are mindless shills because then you can throw out the thoughts they bring to the table.
Again, leading me to ask, why/what motivates you to continue this? Clearly, not an attempt to understand, or come to your own conclusions based on a more complete understanding of what you're actually dealing with.
My main motivation here is that it seems like everyone I know is turning to this organization as of late. I would like to know what drives them, what the sudden upsurge in popularity is. After all, they didn't just appear yesterday. What is it that is suddenly drawing my friends to them?
I've sat in silence watching them get more and more involved. I've never once told them my own opinion, because they're free to do as they please, and if it's working for them, it's working for them. But the question of why has surely been eating away at me.
I see no benefit in organized movements for myself. However, what other people do is their business, and I do apologize for saying that they should be shut down. There is good and bad in any kind of politics, so I guess I should have just taken whatever corruption there is in stride, since it's going to happen anyway. However, I won't back down on my claim that these state-run centers, who are obviously doing more harm than good, need a serious wake up call.
I tend to agree with FR. That guy who replied to her message could have at least made an effort to address the points she raised. The fact that he didn't doesn't speak well of them. As to why more people are seemingly being drawn to the NFB, I suspect it has to do, in part at least, to the promise of maybe being able to drive sometime in the future since the NFB are the ones who started that. I personally think and probably always will, that that's a recipe for disaster.
What worries me the most is not so much that people are putting their hopes into something like the thought of being able to drive. Of course, before logic catches up with you, what blind person isn't swept into that fantasy of being able to go wherever they want, whenever they want? But that's not where my concerns stem from. I've noticed that the NFB tends to be most interested in the weak and vulnerable for its new members. Where the army, or the coast guard as Leo said, want and need members who are vibrant, strong, and dedicated, or have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they can become so, the NFB draws its strength from the collective weakness of others' misfortunes. Now, again, that's probably a generalization, but I will speak from what I've personally seen lately. The trend seems to b this: people are joining the NFB to escape something.
My friend's ex girlfriend comes from a pretty bad background and has recently come out as bisexual. She's getting very involved in the NFB because this girl she's seeing is a member, and now she somehow sees a way out of her situation with her parents just because she's involved with the NFB. I dated a guy in high school who was extremely shy due to a stuttering problem. This guy, who more often than not couldn't articulate his thoughts, is now a strong supporter of the NFB. But is it for the right reasons? I can't really ask him, of course, since we aren't exactly on speaking terms. But knowing what I know about him, I would question his motives as well. Another friend of mine recently said he's going to a training center. His main reason? Because he wants to gain the skills to be independent. Good, right? Not quite: he too has a need to escape from his parents.
Look, what people choose to do is their business, as I said. But when you throw people I care about into it, that's where I draw the line. I don't want to watch anyone else go through what the originator of this topic did. I can't stand watching my friends get treated like shit. Not that many people enjoy that, of course, but I think I'm more deeply affected than most. What I want now is some peace of mind. I want to know my friends aren't being thrown to the wolves. That may not have been my motivation before. When I was a little younger and a lot more immature, I probably did take pleasure in the thought of an establishment, regardless of what it is, falling to its knees. But not anymore. My reason now may not be valid, but it is what it is. Take it or leave it. It's up to you now.
Brian, I have to disagree with you on that point. I think that with all the technology coming out, we will be able to drive sometime in the future. I also think that blind people could be pilots as well. If I can ride a bike down a residential street just fine, I don't see a problem with driving a car down a freeeway with the necessary technology. What I don't like about the NFB is that a lot of the people I've met who are strong supporters of the NFB can also be snotty. Not everybody, of course, but a lot of people are, and that does make that organization look bad.
Brian and f r:
I beg you, read my past posts on matters of the nfb. I do not let them guide me; I am no robot. I am a part of an organization, yes, but I am still my own person. I don't believe in the so called centers, the "blind car", and other things but why is it such a crime for me to be a member? I like to be part of the good things they do. Oh and let me point out that in a round about way, if it wasn't for the nfb, you would not have a computer on which to type your thoughts.
But can you prove that? What if the NFB had never existed? don't you think that some other organization would have come along to fight for the rights of the blind? I'm not saying it would have been better or worse, but I do think that especially now, in the 21st century, we wouldn't be completely in the dark. I'll say this much though. Not everything they've done is evil. I may have implied that before, but my main disagreement is with the centers, and the stuck up attitudes of some of its members, not with legal actions they might have taken or advances we've made with their help. Having said that, I still don't feel a need to get involved. Obviously, they have enough members that they're powerful enough already. I don't need to add any grease to the wheel, especially when I don't like the way it turns anyway.
One can entirely concede that the blind will drive, without the NFB's arrogant dismissal of technologies already in use by the U.S. Military to autopilot drones. Google's car rant by itself in the streets of San Francisco. NFB's car drove around an oval track, like robots have done for 30 years.
Now, if they would get with the program and use the technologies the military has been using, successfully I might add, to autopilot vehicles with a controller human then I would give them a chance with this thing. It's not the so-called dream or attitude or whatever, it's the backwards-ass way they think they want to go about it, in the face of other amazing technologies already in use.
They want to be the OS/2 or Amiga of automated vehicular transport, and drive the costs up by targeting one small group of people. The sensiblle thing, of course, is to get all vehicles automated so all humans on the road are using these technologies. Then accidnt rates will plummet, and so will the insurance rates to go with them.
Well I've heard cars will drive themselvs with in the next 10 years or so. Really if you think about it the sighted could gain something from it to. You wouldn't have to worry about whows getting drunk and whos driving home you just say to your car take me home. People could text in the car since alot of sightlings can't go with out texting while driving. Now about the NFB I went to a camp when I was 7. It was there way or no way. May mom was helping me get serial I was only 7 mind you, and they said oh no he can do that himself. First telling my mom how to rase me I don't think so and second I've been pouring glasses at home of corse, but I was taking things at my pace. I wasn't ready to pour my own milk and just as I said I would I made a giant mess. Okay I know what your thinking but they wanted you to learn right? There was no do this, no hand over hand guiding just me making a big mess and feeling like a idiot. I'm sure I didn't stay over night at the camp cause I don't think I would of been able to handle it. Next at that age I did not like touching foods or sticky things I hated it. Probly up until I was 9 or 10 and they made make some pigs in a blanket with cheese and this other stuff. I didn't want to do it but they made me. Thankfuly they didn't make me eat it. It's not that I don't like hot dogs or pigs in a blanket but we had to put like cheese and something else on it probly ketchup which I refuce to touch even to today if I can help it. We went to McDonolds and I asked how will I carry my tray and they just said you will figure it out. So They did show me but they wanted to some how have my tray and cane on the same arm so I could follow them. I don't ever think I got sighted guide once when I was there and that was really tough especially at 7 years old. In McDonolds I was able to follow someone by putting a hand on there back or something. Then there was mobility with the blind O and M instructer. Which was a bit scary but there was nothing I could do about it. Here is what the instructer did right and here where he went wrong. The good thing was he walked in frunt of me and kept calling my name and talking to me. The bad thing the dude walked backwards. When I asked why he was working backwards he said "So I can talk to you." Now besides being against the idea of a blind mobility instructer, if your going to teach me don't walk backwards. He wasn't even using his cane behind him or anything so if he were to walk out in to the street it would of been him and then his cane. Needless to say I was afraid until we got back to the building. At a Summer camp it's supposed to be fun hence the name camp. They made me write a journal in braille, going blind 4 years ago I wasn't exactly big on braille, but I used it pritty well on a braille writer but they made me use a old slate and styless. At a summer camp come on. Being smaller I did like there canes if only for a little. They took my folding cane though and I never saw that again. They were anoying in the car and at restronts. Back at home when school started. One night I went to church and asked a priest to bless my NFB cane don't ask me why I did, but the next day it snapt in half. Which I think was God's way of saying go back to the folding cane haha. Even after that I never liked them and went back to a good old folding cane. I don't like the NFB I don't like the 1 size fit all policy. You say we are there to learn but considder this. There isn't 1 way to teach someone, and that way may not work for everyone. A camp or anything that forces on you isn't worth anyones time.
I ment I'm sure glad I didn't*
I agree. The NFB has indeed done some good things in its time. It's the teaching policies and, as others have observed, the stuck up attitudes of a lot of its members (though by no means all), that anger me. As for the driving thing as I've repeatedly said it's not just whether it CAN be done that I'm concerned about. It's the feasibility of this project. For one thing these cars are bound to be so expensive that the average blind schmoe, whether employed or not, will probably not be able to afford one. And if getting assistance from Voc Rehab to buy ordinary assistive tech is sometimes like pulling teeth then I shudder to imagine their reaction if you asked for help getting one of these cars, even if you could prove how it would benefit you. Then of course theee's the legal battles if a blind driver were ever to get into an accident. Because the sighted world at large is going to zero in on the blind driver, regardless of whose fault the accident actually was
Oh, my.
Well, just goes to show that some in this organization are really really back ass, and don't know how to teach or work with people. After hearing that, I can understand why you think/feal/believe as you do.
I think the NFB should be more careful about who they put in those kinds of positions, because yet again, it undermines what progress is being made.
Particularly when working with people that know what they are doing at the centers is nothing like that which you describe.
All the blind travel instructors i've worked with have formal training to back up what they are doing.
They know not only the concepts of travel, but how to teach. most of them hold masters degrees, or were in the process of earning them at the time.
In a lot of ways, teaching travel blind works like teaching it sighted, save a few adaptations. I've even worked with sighted instructors that put on shades and travel just as we would, with just as much ease.
For the most part, I find most "traditional" instructors do a piss poor job of really understanding the student/their abilities/the limitations, and thus don't really provide an effective platform for learning.
Some "traditional" instructors get it, but most don't.
f r:
I often ask myself, "would the blind really suffer without the nfb?" The answer is not verry much. We would struggle, that's for sure. I don't believe any other group would stand up for our rights. We the nfb are of the blind, for the blind. Sure, it is possible to manage without anything, but would you want to?
To answer the post above, I don't engage with any voluntary sector organisation for the visually impaired. So if they all disappeared tomorrow,their disappearance would have no impact on my life.
There are however, some people who are dependent and reliant on VSOs for the visually imapaired, and whose worlds seem to be shaped by their use of those organisations. I imagine those people would feel lost without VSOs for the visually impaired.
And to that end, there's no difference between an organization for the blind and, say, religion. Sorry to keep drawing this comparison, and this is not meant to start a religious debate, but as I said, I feel that people, particularly young people, are turning to the NFB for all the wrong reasons. They don't do it because they're passionate about a cause, or a particular battle the NFB is fighting. Rather, they do it because they think, "what can they do for me?" Of course that in itself isn't bad. It's the idealism with which some people look at it that's the problem. Just as a Christian can say their life would be worthless without God, or that only with God in their lives have they become strong, healthy, etc., I feel that that's the way the NFB markets themselves to those who feel desperate and trapped, and I don't believe that's healthy.
Why not the ACB, then? My theory is that it's because the ACB is much more passive in their approach, not to mention they don't have training centers with which to entice people who are seeking reprieve or escape.
I guess I should say too that I was probably a little harsh in my judgment of the ACB as a whole, but the experience I did have in the Philadelphia chapter sure didn't speak well of them. I remember when I first got there for the meeting, there was this guy walking around, banging everything with his cane so louodly you couldn't help but notice. My ex's mom, who happened to be with us, asked him if he was lost or if he needed help. He said yes, so we got on the elevator, and she asked him if this was his first time there too, and he said no, but that he could never remember where things were. Not to mention he smelled like a homeless person. Well, maybe he was, for all I know, but my point still stands. Once we got into the room where the meeting was being held, it was more of the same. And it seemed like everyone except us had a talking watch, and every single talking watch went off on the hour, each one going off a few seconds after the last, so for about 2 minutes that was all you heard. It was very distracting, not to mention rude, so needless to say, neither one of us felt the need to go back there. Besides, I once heard that at the ACB conventions, you're not even allowed to leave the hotel at night by yourself or with a group of other blind people unless you're accompanied by a sighted person. While I can't speak to the validity of that statement, it was definitely said.
I've heard lots of people say, "well, the social aspect is just as important as the political one." The problem I have with that statement is that it fails to take into account that there are other ways to network. For example, you could do what I do and hang out on the listservs, and if a point is raised that you find particularly prudent, email the person privately and start talking that way. Even places like the zone, while in general are full of drama, can provide socialization, support and understanding to those who have recently lost their vision. While I'm not big on the whole online thing myself, I accept that it's pretty common for people to meet friends, possible job contacts, and significant others online. It can be good or bad, and my own personal reasons for generally staying away from that, with a few rare exceptions, have nothing to do with this discussion.
In short, if you want to march together in the name of freedom, do it for that reason, not because you're trying to fill a void. You can do that plenty of other ways. You don't need to subscribe to a set of beliefs to accomplish that, particularly if deep down they make you uncomfortable in any way. Just the same, if you truly feel in your heart that this is what you want, if you're being drawn to it for reasons you can't explain, or are particularly passionate about something they're doing, go for it. But don't lie to yourself should you find that its not what you want. That's the main advice I would give someone if they wanted to join anything that could change their life in a significant way. Don't do it because you feel you have to. Do it because it is you.
F&R, how can you be certain those you think are turning to the NFB for what you call "the wrong reasons" are actually doing so? I ask because in a previous post, you said you hadn't discussed this with them. maybe to the people in question, they're legitimate reasons. who are you to say/assume otherwise, especially when you yourself don't have an accurate perception of the NFB?
Well, I can't be 100% sure about the first two people I mentioned, but the third guy explicitly said he's going to a training center so he'll have strength to leave his parents' house. I don't know if that means he's going to get deeply involved in the organization, and frankly, that's not the point. I'm saying it's wrong to go blindly into something when you've had disagreements with it in the past just to escape an undesirable situation. As I said, the person I'm speaking of right now is going into it for that reason. The other two, though, I'll admit I can't be certain.
As an ACB member, I just thought I would clear up a couple of things. We do fight for the rights of blind people, but, as someone else suggested, we do it in a more passive manner than the NFB. F&R, not every member of every chapter is like the guy you met when you got to the Philadelphia conference; we have plenty of members who have good hygiene, are employed, have good social skills, etc. Unfortunately, I have never been able to attend the national convention, but I do know, based on stories friends of mine have told, that the rumor you heard about not being allowed out of the hotel at night without a sighted person is just that: a rumor.
Young people being idealistic? Since when was that restricted to the blind? That's what young people do: idealize, have their head in the clouds about what it's gonna take to do things, join causes, get laid at political rallies, and much more. Don't see why one would expect the young who are also blind to be any different.
At Little Sneezer:
Good to know that. Sorry to be so blunt about what I saw, but I thought I would throw it out there. I'm on some of the ACB email lists, and the people who contribute the most seem intelligent enough, so I believe what you're saying. It's unfortunate that my introduction to the ACB was less than welcoming, but oh well, it is what it is.
At Leo:
I'm 22, and I'm not getting sucked into this stuff. I'm sure you weren't implying that all young people are idealistic, and I've been told more than once that I'm an old soul (which I haven't decided whether that's good or bad), but when it comes down to it, I really don't know what to do. Not everyone can be me, I understand that. I'm not even saying it's good to be as cynical as I am. I just wish people would think before they launch themselves headfirst into whatever it is they're looking at while they're floating on cloud nine.
f r:
You need to realize that the people you have met don't neccisarily reflect the nfb or a c b as a whole. I would heartily suggest you do some real research before you begin spouting off about things you do not understand. I agree with you about the centers. They are rediculous. I agree with those who say that the nfb can be rude and so on, however, don't be so quick to judge the nfb as a whole.
Well, like it or not, our personal experiences do shape what we think of a given situation. That's what prejudice is. Is it right? Not necessarily. Is it human nature? Yep, pretty much.
exactly, and people have a right to think and feel however it is they think and feel about a situation, whether others like it or not, So, just get over it and move on.
people react similarly when it comes to many other situations. Weather its seeing/hearing about a food, and not trying it because of what they think they know about it, or not visiting a particular place for the same reasons. Most people are comfortable in their comfort zones. that's just human nature, and at the end of the day, this situation just becomes another token example of that, nothing more and nothing less.
Oh I agree but the best way to fight off the prejudices is by education. This means we must try to do some "grunt work." We are all guilty of having our heads up our own asses now and then. That doesn't mean we should keep them there.
Oh wow I had to post again because I saw something about how the nfb is bringing structured discovery into the classroom. This is just sick!
To the last poster, do you have an article or link to whatever it is you're referring to?
How do they intend on doing that? I don't see it happening on a large scale, especially in public schools, but I would like to read whatever information that's available on it.
I wouldn't be surprised. And if schools will allow the political correctness crap they might just allow this as well.
I wish I wrote down the link. Just google nfb and structured discovery.
Presumably they'd only do that in blind schools. I don't think any organisation should be allowed to go into mainstream schools claiming it represents all blind people when it only represents blind people who agree with it. Allowing that to happen could lead to people perceiving blind people based on their experiences of a blind organisation.
I completely agree.
What makes you think that hasn't happened already?
It has. Many "blind advocates" have come to my school. I was in 5th grade I guess and I was laughed at for a long time for that shit.
In my experience most sightlings don't even know these organizations exist. That's good for me.
I don't blame you for feeling that way.
I am with you who hate the NFB! I can't stand them! They are mostly a bunch of people who are like oh I'm blind but I'm so great assholes. The only thing I like is they are fighting for better wages for the disabled. I am a unionist and see that as a great thing, but the only thing they do that I see as good. I learned from the CNIB and they were right on in what they taught me.
not a member of the NFB, ACB, or any other three letter organization for the blind; I don't need to be a member of one of those organizations in order to feel important or achieve my goals in life. I do just fine on my own, thank you very much. :)
Right on! Sighted people don't join I'm sighted organizations.
I doubt people invest themsevles in those organizations to feel important or have a life or whatever. That's just fool teenage chick talk.
In all truth, people invest time and resources into volunteer or nonprofit organizations because they believe that organization is doing great work and want to help them get the job done.
I don't belong to either of those myself. But, unlike some accusers say, I don't belong to the Coast Guard's volunteer wing for a testosterone rush, or out of midlife need to rejuvenate, even though the latter of those things can happen. I belong because I saw what they did for the environment and for lifesaving measures, and in our community out here they play a very vital, if unsung role.
So to be perfectly fair, it's rather silly and ignorant to cast aspertions on members of those organizations. I won't, precisely because I don't appreciate the aspertions that get cast on us who do what I do. Unlike they say at Disney land, the world isn't small: it's a ginormous place, and there's plenty of room for you to find what you want to be involved with.
I used to serve in the CG but found they wouldn't let me do anything so don't serve anymore. I'm now a union activist and organizer now and enjoy that very much.
Well, I'm sure you don't get high up in any organization, volunteer or otherwise, by going there to play. I was simply pointing out that those who do may think they're going for a leisurely swim with dolphins but they're actually in a shark tank. To be fair, it's their own fault for being so naive, but still, it does make me disgusted, not to mention worried sometimes.
So I am foolishly jumping into something? Look, I understand the pig-headed side of the nfb but that is not what we are about. It is a shame that that's all you've seen but we really do stand for good things. Yes, the car as well as other things just make us look stupid, but every organization has it's issues.
No, I didn't say that *everyone* jumps into it for the wrong reasons. I'm saying that this is what I've seen and experienced. There's a difference. You, unlike most people, are taking the good with the bad, looking at it from all angles. Most people want to idolize what they're getting involved in because they want to see it as all good or all bad. That's not just related to blindness, either. That's a fact of human nature. Some people are just naturally more impulsive or less concerned with the future and are only interested in the here and now. It's kind of like how certain people jump into a relationship because their feelings are so strong that they just go with them, even if there are warning signs that something is wrong. I'm sure we've all been guilty of a lack of judgment of this nature at least once in our lives, so I'm not condemning anyone who doesn't think before they act.
Well said, FireAndRain. And, I'm sure the NFB does good things and serves a purpose for some, but it's just not for every single blind individual on this planet. That goes for any type of organization, not just organizations for the blind.
There are a few points I'd like to make here:
1. I find it amusing that some people here have said NFB is this, NFB are a bunch of assholes. the ACB, or *insert name of organization here*, is the place to be. If you're supporting a particular organization, whether actively or not, it really doesn't speak well for you to condemn people for supporting the NFB for the sake of supporting them. You can have your opinion of their philosophies, but some others will have a negative opinion of the organization you support, too. As for me, I haven't been actively involved with either organization, so though I've heard many things from many people, it really isn't fair for me to form a solid opinion on that just yet.
2. A couple people have written their success stories with the NFB centers in very well thought out posts on this thread. there was nothing about what the ACB can't do that the NFB can; nothing about how everyone *must* go to an NFB center. Just a success story. I've since seen very few people comment on these posts. Again, I haven't been to a proper training center myself, but I've interacted with people who have been to State centers, and I've talked to, and met in person, people who have attended one of the three NFB centers. Generally, these people tend to be very independent, but without making a big deal of it. They don't preach NFB philosophy at all, and they don't even talk about it unless it comes up in conversation. I have heard a few complaints about the centers when I've asked for an opinion of the experience in general, but these complaints have always been about particular staff members, and not about how the center is run, or about what they've learned there. On the contrary, the people I've met who have gone to state centers have been very chatty about how people should go there, and about all the things they apparently learned to do there. However, most of them said the staff pushed them to take a certain career path, and treated them like they were school kids, whose instructors knew what they were talking about, because they were superior. in short, I'll admit I did hear some good stories coming out of state centers, but they made a huge deal out of knowing how to do what they can do because they went to said state center, whereas the people coming out of the NFB centers just live their daily lives, independently, without having to announce how amazing it is that the center taught them this; Unless, like I said, you actually bring the subject up in conversation.
3. I've noticed that the people who oppose the NFB come off as very bitter, whereas the people who oppose other organizations, or do not oppose any at all, seem to come off as just not wanting to be bothered with the whole mess. what is it about the bitter NFB opposition that other organizations do not get? If all organizations have their benefits and risks, what is it about the NFB that makes them worthy of such bitter enemies? Are they really trying to take over the world? Are the other organizations really just trying to stay out of the spotlight?
4. I've seen a few people appear to assume that just because someone may support the NFB, or at least their training centers, they are an active member. If I'm correct, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, you can go to an NFB training center without becoming a member.
that's correct; you can certainly go to an NFB-based training center without actually being a member. I did, and am not a member to this day, nor do I plan on becoming one.
Jess, the reason the nfb atracks such bitterness is because of the arrogant militant nature that some nfb members seem to have. It turned me off at first until I learned what the nfb is really about. The trick is to ignore the ass holes.
Ocean Dream, I think the reason some people try to brag about the state centers they've attended is because maybe they feel they have to defend themselves against these arrogant NFB types who think it's their way or the highway. While I did make a couple posts concerning the center I attended, it was in the context of this conversation. I don't just randomly go around telling everyone and their mother that I went to a center. As for being treated like kids I think it really depends on the staff who work there, the clientele, and everyone's general attitude about blindness. Of course there are lots of places that we would consider to be substandard. On the other hand, I still stand firmly by what I said regarding choice. State centers need to remain open to provide balance. If the NFB isn't for everyone, neither are the state centers. Having both around makes for more informed decision-making. Lots of times, people go to these centers after recently losing their vision. They're at a vulnerable point in their lives, and depending on their personality, maybe they need to be driven by a more militant approach, or maybe they need to be supported in a different way. The point is, for every good or bad thing you can say about each individual center, someone else probably benefits from it.
Exactly. And that also applies to the NFB training centers. I'm not going to deny that some people can handle more of a push than others, but from what I've gathered, most individual staff members are aware of this, and are willing to accomodate these needs. Having said that, training of this nature is much like exercise. As you get stronger, you should be able to handle more pressure. Nobody should be expected to show up to a training center with the ability to walk 10 K on their own. However, by the time they leave, most people can do this.
Taking over the world? Why yes, the NFB, or whatever organization suits your fancy, are the apocolyptic zombies you fear. To that end, please message me privately and I will arrange to sell you freeze-dried food you've never tried, weapons you've never trained on, and a put-together fallout shelter with cryptic instructions which may not meet your local zoning requirements. And all, of course, at a special price just for you since you are one of the few who realizes they're taking over the world.
LOL. You see the same debates and arguments when it comes to screen readers and other assistive tech. Because in a lot of rehab agencies JAWS is the shit and never mind the other options you might have available to you. I was a staunch JFW user for about ten years until I discovered Window-Eyes five years ago. When I told my rehab counsellor I wanted to switch his reaction was basically what? So I ended up paying for it myself on time payments. I need hardly point out that te fact that GW Micro allows this and Freedom Scientific does not was a big clincher for me. But I've occasionally gotten flack from people when I've told them I'm a WE user instead of JFW.
Lol, taking over the world? I hope I didn't sound that extreme. Although, the way some of these people talk, and expect their members to act, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought they could move the world with their own bare hands.
Oh I know people who went to nfb centers and I can tell you there is brainwashing. It is just such a shame.
I'm genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion. I know people who have been to these centers, and I came to the conclusion that there is no brain washing. You, on the other hand, seem to think there is. There is clearly a missing piece to this puzzle somewhere. Perhaps I define "brain washing" differently than you do, or, perhaps the people I know and the people you know responded differently. Perhaps some of the people you know had a bad experience with one or more of the staff members. After all, in any organization, some people have more extreme views than others. Either way, this isn't black and white. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, and I won't form my opinion until I've been more involved, but just as you should take my experience with the NFB with a grain of salt, I am going to take yours with the same grain of salt until one of us has had direct experience. and I'm not talking about just talking to a member. I mean actually getting involved; attending meetings, conventions, perhaps one of the centers.
As someone who has been in the nfb I have seen the parts that turn most people off. The whole my way or the highway thing, and the arrogance. Now, I go to meetings where they say "you must get to a center." People latch on to that, get out there, and start the preaching.
True, the NFB centers are strongly recommended by some, but I have met very few people who say you *must* go to one, or you will not be able to function properly. Again, some people have more extreme views than others. Don't get me wrong, I can't stand extremists of any kind, but I have met enough people involved with the NFB to over shadow the extremists, and to be honest, it has made the idea of going to one of their centers quite refreshing.
Would religious people avoid going to college just because one of their professors talks about how religion is a load of crap, and that the people who believe are no better? I doubt it. they would probably just ignore that professor's views and not let them get to them. would you opt not to go to college because a professor there thinks blind people don't belong there, and that we'll never amount to anything? Probably not. I'm sure most of us would try to avoid ending up in that person's class, but we wouldn't avoid the college altogether.
No supporter of any group is going to completely agree with everything that group stands for. that doesn't mean there are no benefits to getting involved. You just need to take what you can get from it and disregard what you don't agree with. I can admit that wearing sleepshades and using an NFB cane would be annoying to some, but to me, it would be a minor annoyance, at the very worst. I've never tried using one, so I can't say for sure. If it's a major one for you, don't go to the center. simple as that. this is why there are other types of centers. if you don't like what you hear at a meeting, then don't adopt it into your life. Whether or not any of these active members are trying to brainwash people is up for debate, but one thing is for sure: A strong mind cannot be brainwashed.
I've been in the nfb and the deeper you are in it, the more you see the brainwashing. As to your religion question, the hard core would avoid the class because they'd label the professor a liberal. I have met such people.
Well for us lifers I don't see this is a problem.
But I follow a few people on Twitter who are losing their sight. They can best be described as rather lost and vulnerable as they start to try and figure all this shit out.
One thing that pisses me off more than anything is political or religious people using defenseless and vulnerable people to further their agenda. All this discussion on here about people taking and leaving this or that with the NFB doesn't apply to someone who by all appearances is dazed and confused. In this way, if they are in fact doing this, they are like the hardcore religious types, and those have a very special place, at the end of my boot!
Honestly, this may come off as rather harsh, But I don't think people who haven't been to a center/toured/really investigated what they do and do not have to offer should be talking about them, much less recommending What would be best for a person or not. Most people who tend to open there mouths about them, are wrong on many levels. If you only have information from a friend of a friend, or based on a rumor or half understanding, you will do the person a favor by pointing them in the direction of people who know what the centers are like, or shutting up. Part of the problem is misinformation, that leads to fear and rage. Most of the time, this can be fixed with an actual productive dialogue about the centers, if you have realistic people speaking about them. Its not ment for everyone, and i'm not going to tell you it is, but by the same token, i'm not going to feed the fires of hate either. Its all about what you want to get out of the training.
Oddly enough, the same concepts apply to dealing with the NFB at all. While they are not perfect by any stretch, many things people take issue with are flat out wrong.Its somewhat laughable that they have so much hate for an organization based on nothing more than what they've heard as hearsay. This is why I think its so important for people to do there own research. Weather its about training, organizations for an of the blind, technology, etc...
It just seems to me that many members of the nfb are not always concerned with upfront conversation. It is all political. They tell you the following:
1. You are helpless
2. You "need" a center
3. You are not independint until you go to a center.
Now, I am going by what I heard at my state's last convention.
And the one size fits all teaching mentality as well. I've gotten confirmation of that much from many different sources. If I was helping a newly blinded person I wouldn't send them to a ceter where they would only be taught to use a straight, non folding cane. Certainly they sould experience what it's like to use one, but not to the total exclusion of the alternatives. The folding canes hide your blindness crap needs to go.
Do not tell me that the BNFB straight cane is stronger then my graphite can or the can that ambutech is about to put out soon, both canes are strong canes that can be taken any where.
UGG... I ment NFB cane
Oh I agree there. No one will ever separate me from my graphite cane lol. I've never had a bad experience with one, except for the time I had a not so bright idea to take my cane to the beach, and it of course got sand in it and wouldn't fold right after that, so I had to buy another one. But considering I had that particular cane for almost 8 years it was probably time for a new one anyway.
have you ever tried using an NFB cane? Do you know, in great detail, the difference in tactile feedback from an NFB cane as opposed to what you're currently using? don't worry; I don't either, which is why I'm not posting about preferring my cane to an NFB one, because there's no way to know which I prefer until I can adequately compare them.
No, can't say that I have. But if something is working for me, why should I try something else? My cane is not a safety hazard. I don't narrowly avoid getting hit by cars every time I go out. I have a preference. Of course, some people need to have the definition of preference pounded into their skulls repeatedly, or so it seems, but that's another topic.
I agree; no need to fix what isn't broken. I don't have problems with my cane either, so why try something new when what I have works fine?
why try something new, even when what you're using seems to be working? because, perhaps that's one of the many ways to gain new perspectives in life, or figure out whether you'd rather continue using said cane.
I for one have indeed tried the canes the NFB preaches about, though not at an NFB center. And I got far less feedback from them than my graphite canes have ever given me and a great deal more inconvenience. And I was also trained using straight canes at first until I finally insisted, after experiencing folding ones, that my instructor let me switch. And it was a later O&M instructor who practically insisted that I try a graphite cane since aluminumones always seemed to bend sooner or later no matter how careful I was with them. I have had a joint break on a graphite cane after a big guy tripped over it in the locker room in High School, but that was te only time.
I'm not at all knocking graphite canes. I have one myself, and have no complaints, except for the fact that it's really short, which is fine when walking slow to moderate speed, but if you really need to move it, you only get a second or two to react to stairs or other obsticles with a cane that short. yes, you can trip someone with a long cane, but you can trip someone with a short one, too. Occasional accidents are unavoidable, but certain common sense tips do apply here: Don't walk right into a cluster of people if you can just go around them. if someone is walking right at you, move your cane out of their path so they won't trip. I know our ears can't tell us *everything* about this kind of thing, hence my saying that occasional accidents are unavoidable, but they happen often enough with any kind of cane in any type of situation. There's a difference between having a preference, and settling for what you already know. You have to know what you're preferring to what before you can really prefer it. From what I've heard, the NFB cane does take some getting used to, but then again, a book should really never be judged by its cover. Imagine if, when computers were introduced to businesses around the world, the people had just replied with "Thanks, but no thanks. Our system works for us. No need to change it". Imagine all the things we wouldn't have today? Imagine how much longer some things would take? Hell, half of us who currently have jobs wouldn't be able to do what we do at work. Or, at the very least, not very efficiently.
What seems to be the best tips for cracks in the side walk. those bottle cap tips the nfb uses get stuck in the sidewalk major easy! I like there canes for being long. you can get any cane long really just order the size you want. and I agree with Jes about walking fast. I nearly went saling off a stare case with a short cane once.
Wow so did I!
I think the NFB is too arrogant to admit that they are blind and not perfect.
what do you mean by that statement? Also, when have the NFB ever said they're perfect?
@OceanDream they can't mean anything by that 'perfect' statement. That's just one of those last-straw throw-in-the-towel arguments like "nobody's perfect" or "what about the children." I wouldn't pay that any mind any sooner than I would listen to the dogma from any organization.
Yes indeed. I will admit that some parts of the nfb philosophy seem arrogant and make me a bit ashamed to know them, but I have learned to just ignore that portion.
It is brainwashing! If you are told every day what to do every minute for nine months, how do they expect you to be an adult? And what is this forced fun crap? Your weekends should be your weekends!
This has been a very shocking thread to read. I understand why some people feel strongly opposed to the NFB, to an extent, but I have a couple of questions if any of the previous posters still post regularly on here. I know there are a couple.
First, it seems as though you are judging every single person that is affiliated with the NFB along with the centers, and the people who attended the centers and moved on to live successful lives. Why have you not taken the opportunity to ask these people questions? After all, they are the ones who went through the programs and made it through. You are wrapped up in the negatives which are based on people who didn't like the philosophy and did not finish their stay at the centers. Why not listen to the other side of it?
Second, to those of you who are disgusted with the fact that structured discovery is becoming more popular. Do you know what structured discovery is, and how it is different than the traditional mottle of O&M instruction?
Along with Stormwing, Chelslicious and a small handful of others I am a graduate of the Louisiana Center of the Blind. What was ironic about it was it was one of a few centers that my OVR counsellor offered me to go to and I chose that one. I was given an opportunity to speak with Pam the director, who I might add was friendly, polite and willing to answer any questions I had. She encouraged me to go on to the center's site and explore the things that were on there, so even though I didn't know every single thing about the center (which of course would be impossible unless I would experience it), I did have a better understanding.
One final point I want to add about any sort of similar training. The point of training is not to tell you how you are supposed to respond to every single situation or problem that could come up. The point is to prepare you for an array of situations that could come up, because in the real world, there won't be someone hovering over your shoulder 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to tell you what to do. There won't be someone to walk you every step of the way to a job, therefore it is up to you to get familiar with the town you live in and the lay out of the office or building you work in. And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for help in the beginning.
We may have different opinions on this matter, but you can't distort the facts. I went to the center and finished my training, and as a result became independent. Since then I have traveled to several states across the country alone, independently, asking for help as needed. I am comfortable cooking just about anything, if given the recipe and a brief tour of one's kitchen if it is not my own. And, though I knew Braille, I nearly doubled my reading speed while staying there which has benefitted me in college.
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, and I hope that helps you understand the philosophy behind NFB training centers.
My track record on this topic has not been good, so I understand if you don't take my questions seriously. But yes, I have a couple.
First, have you been blind all your life, or did you lose your vision later? To me, knowing this fact alone may sway your answers. But either way, I'll continue my questions.
Did you know before you attended the center that you would have no choice but to use a straight cane? What were your feelings about that? Were you aware that you would be under blindfolds, which I still refuse to call by that idiotically politically correct name, the majority of the time? Again, what were your feelings about that?
If you were reluctant about either of these things, how were your concerns handled by staff? Did you raise your concerns at all, or were you afraid that, since they were imposing these things on you, their approach to your questions would be met with a militant response?
If you were not hesitant about either of these things, why?
I have more questions for you, but I unfortunately have something to do at the moment. I'll be back later.
Ok, here goes round two.
This may be too personal, but what was your motivation for attending an NFB training center? Was it, at any time, borne of a desire to escape anything? If not, did you know anyone, either during your time there or perhaps elsewhere in your life, who attended a training center out of a need to escape? From controlling parents, maybe a controlling partner? If so, would you say that people with that motive were more easily persuaded to do things the NFB said they should do? Also, were they born blind, or had they lost their vision later on?
Finally, what was your inspiration for choosing an NFB center and not a state-run facility? Did you carefully weigh your options, ask people who had been on both sides of the spectrum for their thoughts, and then decide which center was right for you? I know that sounds really condescending, but what I've personally found is that far too many people will say, "oh, the NFB is so wonderful! They're creating a car we can drive! They sued Target for not having an accessible website!" They have a severe case of fan worship, and therefore assume that their training centers must be the greatest things since sliced bread. They go, without even a thought of what training might entail, or what the NFB's philosophy is. They float in on cloud 9, thinking that the NFB will solve all their problems. I honestly don't think you're one of those people. Your board posts are far too articulate for the kind of naivety and thoughtlessness that would take. But I have to ask this: What percentage of people would you estimate who were in training with you fell into that category?
I have been blind technically since before I was born, because my condition (optic nerve hypoplasia) develops during pregnancy. I have some periferal vision. It is enough to make out basic outlines of people and objects.
During the interview the director mentioned that in the training I would use the long straight cane and the sleepshades. And I don't know why they are called that either honestly. Haha. Anyway it wasn't something I thought much of until I got to training. The admissions lady gave them to me and took my folding cane, and she told me that I could have it back if I wanted after training. The first week was probably the hardest for me to adjust to, especially in cane travel. I was used to using what vision I had especially in that area, and the entire week I felt lost and vulnerable. I decided that I would push through it, and after a while I got used to being blind folded. I don't recall bringing it up to staff, because when I was first a student I was still in that phase where I didn't stick up for myself much. I personally liked the longer cane, though. I fell more times when I used the folding cane because of my long stride and fast pace. I didn't have enough time to react with it when I came up to stairs or drastic changes in elevation, and the long white cane was a much better option for me. The only times I tripped with that cane was when I was not using it properly, and the only times I fell was on the rock climbing trip with the center when I was fooling around and I slipped and fell on some unstable gravel.
During the interview the director may have mentioned that the center was NFB affiliated, but if she did I did not hear that part. I found out it was during one of their seminars, and though I had heard minimal information about the NFB I was clueless as to what its purpose was. Like I said before my choice of the Louisiana Center was more so luck of the draw. It surprises me now that I think about it, that I still wasn't aware that it was NFB affiliated even after I spoke with her and looked at the site.
As far as my reasoning for going to a training center in general? I was sheltered for most of my life. My mom did everything for me. I've learned it was a combination of the belief that it was what she had to do, and that I was limited as to what I was able to do safely. Many other things happened of which i will not go in to detail here about, but I moved to Pennsylvania and ended up in foster care. Fortunately in that instance, I lucked out as well and turned out to have a caring, good intentioned foster parent who refused to treat me any differently than the other kids. He along with my OVR counsellor realized how little I knew about how to do the simplest of things for myself. They both encouraged me to go to the center, and I decided this was something I needed to do for myself. Though I have some family support, I realize that I am my most reliable survival source. Plus, after my foster dad helped me realize what freedom of choice was, I realized how great it was, but I still had trouble applying it to tasks such as traveling around, if that makes sense.
There are some people who I commend on here, because they don't have to attend a center to find it within themselves to be independent, productive, and able in society, but I guess it doesn't come so naturally to others. That is my belief as to why they exist and what their purpose is. What seems to be the issue is there is no set philosophy/system that works for all the clients and all the centers.
I am really proud of all you have accomplished and I am glad you are successful now. I guess all I am saying myself is I don't like how these centers approach things. I have not been to an NFB center but I have visited one in Boston called the Carol Center. I do not like how they tell students what they can eat, forced activities on the weekends no choices about what fun you have, and the way they treat everyone like they are all the same.
Plus, the NFB is all about blind this blind that oh we're so much better than everyone else because we can do everything. Well what sighted person would go off somewhere for nine months to some segregated place to learn something like this? I was lucky I just learned on my own and didn't have to attend one of these horrid places. Anywhere you are sent off for nine months with just blind people serves the wrong purpose. If you want to be in the sighted community, learn in the sighted community, not at some school for the blind where they direct you every move.
Ryan, if I am one on this board who was seen as anti-NFB, it is simple:
To me the NFB had less to do with my opinion than the whole institutional facility aspect of things. But I now freely admit I was ignorant of these centers altogether. I thought rehab and shut-in facility and connected it with some of the religious and other cult affiliated drug rehab joints that usually get to lose their public funding if not have their facilities shut down due to some abusive types of behaviors.
I've learned some things though: not just from this site, but my wife now works in a what she calls long-term residential facility, for pregnant teens and teen moms who have had trouble with the State and their Social Services. There are things there that to me sound like a bit of an extreme measure, like they're not allowed to have cell phones, they have to work up from staying in the dorms to their apartments and some other stuff about groups and things that I honestly don't fully get.
She's had to teach them how to bounce their own baby, or know when to call the doctor or what have you. So I will freely admit to you all that my eyes have been opened.
I'd still say the key question is oversight. If you're a legal adult make absolutely certain that you're not signing on to be in a situation you can't get out of. Maybe it's just Instinct or Nature, or a few hard knocks along the way, but I still say have a backout plan if ever you are going to enroll somewhere where you don't know the place. The difference for someone being blind in this situation is that you're not a minor in jeopardy of losing your child, or in jeopardy of going to wherever they put minors that run away from the foster homes: JDH? So you should not be dealing with the same types of restrictions, in my opinion.
So yes, my eyes are definitely opened to this stuff now, but I guess by Nature or Nurture, I'm still a bit of a guarded individual when it comes to those sorts of things. Especially if you're an adult and then start surrendering rights, property rights, etc., to an establishment like that. Like, for instance, I don't see why they would ever take away a cell phone at a blind center like they do at the place the wife works at. The cane thing? Well, I can see why they would require you to train on their equipment. But confiscation still to me seems a bit of a property rights breach.
If I went there, I would train on their equipment no complaints. But without proper oversight an institution can get out of hand. At the wife's place, they have so much of the accountability action going on there, that everyone knows, and other agencies and all of that know: it's not an island at all. I think you've got to have that, if you're taking the vulnerable on board.
Anyway hope that clarified some of where I have been coming from. As to the Structured Discovery thing? You'e right I didn't know: I just took it to be another one of those social service / education tyep words that probably meant something but lost on most of the rest of us common folk. Every field has their jargon: software's got it, the Coast Guard and Marine / Public Safety has it, everyone does. So no, I had not researched into it, I'd just thought it was another one of those things.
If it helps, I do have a long folding cane, its a grafite cane which has served me for a while. I to did attend a few blindness centers one in Austin TX and the Other in Little Cock "rock" lol AR. Although, the Little Rock one "LWSB" was not so great, I was able to find something to do and be certified that would help me in getting a job. So I guess I do oh it to LWSB for allowing me to go there and study for my MOS certifications.
However, I do not agree with the NFB or "N, *F, B" beliefs what so ever but to each of there own.
ShatteredSanity, I'm sorry I can't exactly answer your last question percentage wise, however, from what I have noticed most of the people who went to the center when I went there were not affiliated with the NFB. There were a few, but I'd have to say the majority was not.
Thanks for understanding where I am coming from. I can't speak for every single center, therefore I'm only speaking from experience. I have also heard stories about other centers that were more strict and isolated. LCB was very community integrated. It wasn't as though you were only allowed out of the center at certain times. Once training was done, we could go out and have dinner, go swimming, or whatever we wanted to do. There were always people around so personally I didn't feel isolated, except for when I first went there and I was somewhat shy.
And, I didn't feel as though I was forced to become an NFB member, though I was encouraged to check out what they have to offer. Remember, you have a choice as to how far you want to go with any organization. I personally find the NFB to be great when it comes to resources that I need such as a cane, tips, etc. However, I don't get involved with the politics. I don't agree with the people who sit around and talk shit about ACB. I have no standing and not much knowledge about them, and I have not gone to one of their conventions. All I've heard is what has been said about ACB on here and from other NFB members.
Leo, it's good that you admitted to not know a whole lot about structured discovery, and knowing you I think it would be something you would like. However, being that you are naturally self-sufficient I wouldn't go as far as to say that you need to be taught structure discovery method. You seem to be doing fine with how you do things, and unless you would want to learn it it isn't a necessity.
One point that needs to be made again...
there are only 3 officially recognized and NFB affiliated centers. these are Louisiana center for the blind, Colorado center for the blind, and blind ink.
All of the rest use their own methods. Some of which are based on some or all of the NFB's guidelines, but are often not carried out the same way. All of the official 3 centers are slightly different, but as a general rule, those are the only 3.
If someone is telling you otherwise, they're lying, or refusing to admit that they're using a modified version of structured discovery.
Personally I wish the NFB would take these other centers to task, because often times people learn quite frankly untrue information from them about the NFB, their training methods, rules, etc.
Thank you for answering my questions, Distance runner.
The conclusion that i've drawn after following and contributing to this topic for so many years, and seeing people I know get involved in it, is that it never was, and never will be, for me. It will always bother me when I see people I care about get sucked into some pipe dream about what the NFB does and how it will save them. I still say that they know this, or so many people wouldn't get drawn to it like flies to a pile of shit. But I've also mellowed out and grown up enough to realize that the NFB isn't going anywhere, and yes, it can even be helpful. My only problem is, as I said, some people just refuse to be informed before they attend one of these centers, and I think that's ridiculous. If you're going to spend 9 months somewhere, you damn well should know everything about it that you possibly can. Sure, your experience could still be completely different than what you expected, but that's true of any major life commitment, and then at least you can't say you were completely thrown for a loop. But the sad part is, I still feel for the person who just runs away from something that feels impossible to deal with, only to find themselves in a worse situation. I'll probably continue to blame the NFB, however irrationally, for this fact to a degree. I can't stand to watch my friends get hurt, especially when there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
Beyond that, the other thing I will never truly get behind is the fact that once you leave an NFB training center, you're free to go back to using your preferred cane or guide dog. You'll never wear a blindfold again. Do they not realize that? Are they really so arrogant as to believe that they know what's best for everyone? I really and truly want to know the answer to that question. Before, I may have asked it out of a sense of, "I told you so, I want to be right," but now I'm asking it because, after the anger has faded, after I've really had time to sit back and reflect on what's been said and done, that question still remains.
Their hypocrisy is also quite shocking. There is an article, The nature of Independence, which I assume most NFB members are familiar with. It seems to be a common scripture, if you will, that they point to when they try to make people understand where they're coming from. I have read this article, and while I have been told that its aim was to dispel the myth that NFB members are hypocrites, it only solidified the truth in my mind. Here's a link to the article, if anyone who hasn't already wishes to read it, then I will comment briefly on my thoughts.
https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/fr/fr13/Issue1/f130115.html
In this article, Kenneth Jernigan is addressing high school students, who, as teenagers are notorious for doing, have zeroed in on a glaring inconsistency of NFB philosophy: the image of the fiercely independent, unwaveringly self-sufficient blind person has been shattered by one simple thing: the use of sighted guide.
Jernigan goes on to say that sighted guide is a tool in your arsenal of independence, just as the cane is, depending on the situation. Fine, I can accept that. What I cannot, and will not, accept, is his further arrogant statements to the effect that mere students who are attending any blindness training facility are something he might step on on the sidewalk if given half a chance. He uses some elaborate psycho-babble to describe the three phases of training, which are basically awkwardness, arrogance, and acceptance. He says that one who is going through either of the first two phases has no business even hinting at knowing what's best for themselves. They are too steeped in denial to know what might work for them. That attitude is extremely patronizing, to say the least. It's not new, by any stretch of the imagination. he's probably making the assumption that, like most students, those who are attending the centers are young. Youth in our culture and society is seen as something to sneer and spit at, at least by the older generations. Perhaps they wish they had more time to spend romping through their glory days. Maybe they want to undo mistakes they've made, and glower upon anyone or anything that reminds them of those times. But I'm not going to speculate about Kenneth Jernigan's psyche. That's pointless, and frankly, I could care less. But NFB supporters really, really need to stop using that article as evidence to back up why the NFB is wonderful. I can't be the only person who finds it to be a less than flattering portrait of an organization riddled with hypocrisy and sly political agendas, as all organizations are.
It certainly isn't for everyone, but it does work for others. I do agree one should do research before doing anything that can have such a big impact on your life. However, research is based on the facts, and research alone could go against what you feel is right. For instance, if you were to find the success rate of these NFB centers, that alone may not change your decision or convince you otherwise. I would encourage anyone to attend LCB or the two other centers, because it has helped me, but I won't think of you as lesser a person if you decide not to.
It's not just about success rates, though. You have to take in the whole picture. You would have to read about structured discovery, the canes, even key components of their philosophy. Most people aren't up for that task, although they should be.
Much of that philosophy does make me shudder.
My wife works for a residential facility with a program for teenage runaway girls, one floor is teenage moms and the other floor is just teens. Now the parent organization may be faith-based but they cannot express any of that except where the girls ask her about something. All organizations who contract with the government are like this. There are ways and words she uses with them, and I'll bet she'd ash a lot of what has Ben said to happen here is inappropriate. Her organization has independent observers for accountability. This protects staff and clients, is the word she uses for the young birds there.
I think it's clear the NFB philosophy is a religion of sorts, and they should be subject to the same strictures when contracting with the government.
Even I or Cody could work at Her place if we were qualified, because most people there aren't faith-based.
Oh, and she always talks about structure with them. Every industry has it words though, like they call things meeting needs and self care and checking in and so on. All for stuff like making sure them birds get a shower or brush their teeth, or the ones with babies are looking after them right and bonding,which they work with them on. But everything gets reviewed by the government since that's where they come from. She says this is all known stuff everywhere. The accountability helps protect staff and clients. She used to primarily be a educator but now she works in this kind of a program place, I've been enlightened. Anyway independent accountability from independent sources ensures everyone things are running right.
And, she does use a lot of educator words about them but I've never heard her or ber friends say what GreenTurtle was talking about. That guy sounds like a preacher instead.
Anyway more developing thoughts from a average guy who lives with a educator that has worked at a program place now for about a year.
Also she says those kind of places are hard on staff, you invest and one f's it up and gets booted or their baby given to foster care. But more often she calls it a revolving door and she can't do one on one as much as she wants to. It's so common they got classes and books about it, and that word of theirs self care. It's really tough being those people. Sometimes she has to cry for awhile. And they check in to each other their word for calling and texting each other about it. It's a tough life fot them. Even though they say they have skills for this and that, they're human first. Which is also why they have all this independent reviews and accountability. She says all program places doing it right do this, when I asked if this was unique to her and that place.
Also someone on this thread complained about the NFB program do everything by choices. I think that May be a common education thing, She does that a lot. And did with the daughter and nieces growing up, a lot of those things she called teachable moments. All this "make a different choice," and stuff like that.
Oh and the other thing is groups. Someone on here said they didn't like having to do group. I think k all program places do group. Where She works they've got groups for a lot of things from whenever they go out in the community to emotion stuff to bonding with their babies and more. And she says most hate the groups and goal setting at least at first. So anyway some of this stuff is common to all program places.
I am active in NFB and really enjoy what the organization stands for. Yes some can be a bit controlling but I truly believe you get out what you put in. The organization has never treated me different because I have a guide dog and I have met some of the most encouraging empowering blind individuals.
Forgive me, but this far cry person sounds absolutely lazy and unwilling to try a new way of thinking. I attend CCB and feel like I'm learning a lot here. The centers do not appreciate attitudes like this of, "My way is the right way and it's my way or the highway." They've taught me there is no right or wrong way to do something. So yeah, this far cry and Jenny... Well, all I can say is, quit bitching. These centers are beneficial, well, Idk about all of them but CCB has been beneficial because I have opened my mind and am letting myself learn new things.
since this topic has been revived, I'll answer the questions GT posed.
have you been blind all your life, or did you lose your vision later? I've been blind all my life, but as far as I'm concerned, that has no baring on why I feel the way I do about NFB-based training centers.
did you know before you attended the center that you would have no choice but to use a straight cane? yes, I did.
what were your feelings about that?I was reluctant to do so, at first, but I also had at least a little bit of understanding why that was necessary. it made sense to me that, since I'd be attending an NFB-based center, I'd in turn, be required to use their equipment.
were you aware that you would be under blindfolds, which I still refuse to call by that idiotically politically correct name, the majority of the time? yes, I was.
again, what were your feelings about that? as with the above answer, I was reluctant to use them, initially. however, I understood the reasoning behind why it was required, and therefore, didn't hesitate to abide by the rules.
if you were reluctant about either of these things, how were your concerns handled by staff? the staff explained the reasoning behind using the sleepshades to me, along with reminding me that although it would take time to adjust, if I stuck with things the best I could, I'd get the most out of the program.
did you raise your concerns at all, or were you afraid that, since they were imposing these things on you, their approach to your questions would be met with a militant response? yes, I shared my concerns with the staff. even though I typically didn't speak up for myself, in any other way, I learned very quickly that I needed to do so, in order to maximize my experiences at the LCB.
also, I feel I should add that, even when I first became a student at the LCB, I didn't see anyone there as being militant/imposing anything on me. it was my choice to go there, it was my choice to follow the rules or not, and ultimately, it was my choice whether things ended for better or worse.
I'll be back to answer GT's second set of questions, in another post.
this may be too personal, but what was your motivation for attending an NFB training center? simply put, I did extensive research on various training centers, not just NFB-based one's, and ultimately found that an NFB-based training center would best fit my needs.
was it, at any time, borne of a desire to escape anything? while there were reasons in my life that I wanted to attend a center, needing to escape wasn't one of them.
I was incredibly sheltered for most of my life, and I knew that attending a center was what I needed to do, in order to be able to function on my own, in any capacity.
if not, did you know anyone, either during your time there or perhaps elsewhere in your life, who attended a training center out of a need to escape? from controlling parents, maybe a controlling partner? I don't think using the term "needing to escape" is accurate, at all.
I knew people who, like me, had gone through things, that in turn, lead them to realizing they should attend a center, but it was something they, and I, did for ourselves, rather than something that was done out of a need to escape something.
if so, would you say that people with that motive were more easily persuaded to do things the NFB said they should do? since I don't believe such a motive even exists, I don't think those people were more easily swayed to do anything, by anyone.
as I said in my previous post, people knew what they were getting into, when they went to the center, and the choices they made, were theirs and theirs alone, minus the rules they had to follow.
also, were they born blind, or had they lost their vision later on? it varried. some had been blind all their lives, and others were going blind.
as I previously said in answer to this question, though, that fact has no baring on things, as far as I'm concerned.
finally, what was your inspiration for choosing an NFB center and not a state-run facility? as I said above, I felt an NFB-based training center would best meet my needs.
did you carefully weigh your options, ask people who had been on both sides of the spectrum for their thoughts, and then decide which center was right for you? yes, I did all that, in addition to communicating with the director beforehand, looking on their website, ETC.
what percentage of people would you estimate who were in training with you fell into that category? I don't know about a percentage, but as with anything in life, there were some people who totally idealized the NFB, and others who were more realistic about how things were, and should be.
Seriously. Before you're even confirmed to be attending, you talk to the director of LCB, and she tells you the expectations they have, the reasons why, and how long the adjustment process usually takes.
Unless someone didn't pay attention at all, they surely couldn't have made it to the center with out knowing the rules of the road, so to speak.
Just curious: what percentage of us (the blind in the U.S.) are members of the NFB? The ACB? And what percentage of us are like me - not affiliated with any of them?
That's a really good question. I am in the not-affiliated camp. Some of the complaints on here and the testimonials on here both make it sound a bit cultish. See a couple posts back. That reads a bit like a religious testimony at a magic show we call a church service.
You won't find this sort of response to other nongovernmental nonprofit organizations. That is why I say it at least *behave* very much like a religion.
Can you imagine if where the Chick works, they forced the girls to go to the Salvation Army church? (which they don't and they never have and keep all that separate.) Any of you taxpayers would be outraged.
In my mind, the NFB should get the same treatment. They want to be treated like everybody else, cut the damned magic shows already. I've heard from several people already who went through their program, and had to go to Conventions and sit through some magic show speeches. That's just plain wrong. Again, imagine how you would feel to find out your tax dollars supporting faith-based organizations running these sorts of residential programs actually had the clients attend faith-based activities? I don't care if you're NFB, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Wiccan, Naked Native Moon Dancer, or whatever, you just can't be doing this.
I read some of the testimonials on here and saw what smells like magic show to me.
Nothging wrong with putting on a magic show if you want, but you're a religion then and should be subject to the relevant sanctions.
I think the "magic shows" interfered with my ability to learn. Let's say hypothetically that I decided I needed to return to a training center, and that my case worker said I could attend any one in the country. After doing a bit of research I might very well decide that the training at one of the NFB centers suited me. In a perfect world I would choose the facility based solely on training programs and outcomes and that would be the end of it. Unfortunately, many of these centers have additional requirements. One of them might be called "adjustment to blindness class," "seminar," "group therapy" or whatever. Another might be that you attend a convention or even become politically involved in some organization. Due to my particular limitations I don't tend to benefit from situations where everyone talks about their feelings. I don't have as many of them so I end up offending people whose unexpected reactions (including anger from teachers) detract from my training. So another question I must ask myself when researching training facilities is how will they respond to someone with Asperger's Syndrome? I would need to know if the staff would act as though they could make it go away or recognize it as an inate and useful difference. My only reason for attendance would be to acquire physical skills like better travel, which I would use in the real world. Everything else should be optional.
And, referring to some of the reasoning behind rigid canes, hiding one's blindness? What does that even mean? Everyone who knows me already knows I'm blind. Those who don't know me may or may not know I'm blind. I waste few to zero clock cycles trying to imagine what someone who has never met me might be thinking about me. Understand that I'm not picking on rigid canes, but that this is an example of the touchy feely stuff I don't comprehend easily.
Actually, I think if I were to attend a center today, I would offer to become a specialist in some subject like Braille or cooking and help teach. That way I would still be focused entirely on the work, and I would be learning by teaching.
as has been stated before in this topic, going to an NFB-based center doesn't mean you have to be, or become, a member of the organization.
by the same token, no one imposes doing so on the students, through seminar discussions, or otherwise. not to the best of my recollection, at least.
I wasn't talking about having to become a member - to my knowledge no center will require that. I was talking about having to participate in activities which may be very difficult for me and which do not help me become a more independent person. I could imagine explaining to a staff member, "y'all can go do that political rally stuff without me, because it's not my thing. I would be more useful elsewhere. Hey, since I know Braille (including the Nemeth code), why don't you have me volunteer to help teach that skill instead? It might add to my resume."
to add to my last post, the staff may talk about the NFB, from time to time, and encourage students to become members, but they don't think someone is less of a person, if he or she doesn't want any part in the organization.
So you're saying they don't have to go on activities like Convention? Are you saying members of the Center can stay behind and just get work done?
How outraged would you be to find out some group forced a bunch of drug addicts or other rehab program people to go to a Jesus Camp, a Wiccan Moon Dance, or Naked Natives' Circle of Wonder? All while accepting government money?
It is this that I object to.
Chelsea, I have seen this: people saying, Well we don't force people at our centers to become members of our religion, ... and so on. But they do require them to attend those activities.
In short, you can't do that and keep using everyone else's money. That includes contracting with the Government.
And I'd say the same if PETA or some other animal rights / terrorist organization put up some kind of rehab center, then required center-goers to attend their rallies and their conventions. All under the cult guise of saying, "We don't force anyone to join PETA."
That's the most theistic thing any structure could do.
Yes, you have to attend the events that the center sets up. No, you are not forced to become a member of the National Federation of the Blind. Even if they said you have to join they can't stop you from not showing up after you are done. They can't control what you do outside of the training and after you are done, because after all that would be contradictory to one of the main purposes of this training, which is to become fully independent. There has been a lot of changes as far as staff members that work at the center that Chelsea and I went to, but when we went the staff were not overbearing people that tried forcing their ideas down your throat. They pushed you at times to try and get you outside of your comfort zone in an attempt to prepare you for the real world, where you are not fed by the silver spoon and hand held every step you take. I understand it might sound intimidating and scarey to some, but it is not as bad as it sounds.
What I mean when I say changes to the staff is that there have been a lot more new people, as a lot of the original staff either couldn't work or decided to retire. They were a handful of people that are hard to come by, who all worked together for the same main goal of making their students walk out of their graduation from the center with their head up, more confident than before. They stuck with you through the hardest times, and were there when things were great and you invited them out to an event, dinner, etc. I can't speak 100 percent for the staff right now but I trust that the director chose similar people that she found fit for the job.
Ryan is right, in saying that students at NFB-based centers are required to go to state or national convention, and sometimes even both, if they're at the center during the time those events take place.
to me, though, this is no different than having to use their equipment, or hear about NFB's philosophy. it's just part of what people experience, when agreeing to participate in their center programs.
That's what the faith based drug places out here said, while Oregon and Washington disconnected their state funding.
The place the Chick works at, where she has to make sure the girls look after their babies, and for some of them they even have to make sure they brush their teeth and get a shower?
They do have to do groups and classes and things the Chick and hers put on for them, but they are not forced to attend any of the parent organization's functions. No matter what is put on it as an excuse, there simply isn't one for making people go to religious or political conventions when they are being sent to a center that is contracting with the Government.
This is hugely and vastly different from using their equipment. This is hugely and vastly different from learning some kind of educator philosophy be it Structured Discovery for the NFB, or self-care and needs and things, with other programs. It's just not the same.
NFB --- I go to a few local NFB parties for my local NFB chapter here and there and they're decent, just do it for social gatherings and to get out, but other than that don't know much about the NFB.
Blind Centers --- went to one in Daytona Beach, Florida in summer 2010. July-August, for six weeks. Six weeks of hell. That's all I am going to say. I plummeted up in weight, that's where I picked up my cigarette smoking/dipping habit now, staff were not helpful, knew most of what my classes were teaching me, big waste of time! Those places, well some of them I think, need to be more advanced.
Friend of mine was telling me to check out the place for the blind (center) in Colorado.
Do you all know anythig on this?
Leo, one of your recent posts made me think a bit about a person I know. If I already explained this, I apologize. It's been a long time since I've seen this topic.
I began talking to a guy on one of the NFB's email lists several months ago. He was getting slammed for talking about some personal issues, which people were saying that he had no business discussing on a public list. I defended him, not really because of the nature of his posts, but because I have empathy for people who struggle with mental health concerns, and life in general, so much that they feel like the only place they can reach out to is an email list that they're on, where they don't know anybody from Adam.
So, eventually, the two of us started exchanging emails and Skype contact info. The very first time we talked on Skype, he launched directly into a lengthy monologue about the NFB and how they helped him kick his drug habit, become a Christian, and change his life for the better. He was literally preaching to me about NFB literature, to the point that he broke down and cried while telling me about it. When I began making the same points that I outlined above about the particular speech that really gets to me, The Nature of Independence, he simply said, "just have a little faith, and don't overthink it."
I am well aware that this may be an extreme example. Certain other things about his personality that made me uncomfortable made that particular friendship die a quick death. But I have to ask myself: how many others out there are like him? How many fundamentalists does the NFB truly have?
CCB (the Colorado Center for the Blind) is one of the three NFB centers. I went to the one in Louisiana and it turned out to change my ways and my life. I would encourage you to try and get in contact with either the director of that center, someone who works there, or even someone who was a student there. I can think of two people on the zone who went there within the past year, though they don't come around here as much as they used to.
Green Turtle, while I stand behind my opinions, I will say this guy seems to be one of those convert types. This is regardless of be it NFB, going into a lifestyle for fitness, or what have you. Some people are really testimonial based.
Have a little faith and don't overthink it, is the lazy way out of saying, "You know, I don't have an answer for that one."
People do have experiences, and the rest of us can't really deny someone's personal experience. But data is never made up of experiences.
In other words, though I do not know the NFB personally, I think the NFB didn't make this guy do it, some kind of conversion complex or whatever made this guy do it.
People fall for dogmas and things because they feel they need an easy answer to their problems. By easy, I don't mean physically easy, I mean black and white. Life is often a lot more analog than it is binary. But people who are having problems feel a lot more secure if everything is either on or off.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the NFB has links to fundamentalist Christianity. They both achieve the same end: a binary universe and a very simplistic dogmatic interpretation of things. That probably has less to do with similar beliefs than it does similar methodologies.
One attracts the other, in other words.
This is why I personally think the vulnerable should be getting help in dogma-neutral zones. I do not think dogmatics like some Christians, or some NFB types, should be restrained in their own atmospheres. They are not terrorists like the PETA people or similar groups. They're not throwing acid in anybody's face or cutting the harness off someone's dog guide. They're just dogmatics, some of them, and probably don't understand the effects on the vulnerable, many of them.
But this is no NFB conspiracy, it just sounds to me like a very bad chemical reaction, like pure potassium meets H2O.
As to the mailing list thing? That depends on the purpose of the mailing list. If someone gets onto a cigar smokers' forum, for instance, and wants to talk about all the troubles they had with smoking, they're not likely to get a lot of support. Same goes here.
The NFB from my research deals with blind first. Meaning all other problems like dyslexia, people who struggle with space relations and have RLF, and any number of other accompanying disabilities, are shunned because the NFB has a particular image it wants to project. Are there exceptions? Sure, in every case. But it's pretty clear how it generally speaking comes out in the wash.
I'd be telling someone like Voyager, for instance, stay away from there, because these types are likely to not be supportive of Aspergers and might even call it a fake situation the way they have other things.
Remember, they are not scientists, any more than your six-day Creationist Magic Show museum is a science museum. If they were scientists, their publications would be recognized and quoted by the larger scientific community.
They can't call themselves scientists or scientifically inclined, any more than my biologist brother could call himself a social worker, or say he was fluff bunny inclined.
In short, don't go to a vegan restaurant and order steak.
leo, I have to disagree with your thinking that staff at NFB centers would treat people with autism differently than they would you or I.
contrary to the belief many people have about NFB centers not adapting their programs to fit people's individual needs, they actually do individualize their programs for each student, as much as they can.
when I was a student, there was a student who was autistic. he needed a lot of extra help, which they gladly gave him. however, no one ever commented on his autism taking away from anything, making him less of a person, or anything of the sort. they did what they could, to help him get out of the program what he could...and dare I say, he quite enjoyed himself.
Fair point. I don't know about the centers. Only the NFB itself.
Their claim in the 70s was that my getting symbols turned around in Braille was due to laziness and their claims about Braille and their dogmas.
It wasn't till I met the Chick that I learned it was dyslexia. Perhaps a mild form of it, but nonetheless it is what it is.
It's not they dislike dyslexics it is that their dogma is first in priority. Perhaps not at the centers but this is their overarching philosophy.
I've seen the same out here where they argue against audio walk signals which save lives of many people, not just blind. Many elderly people, even dog walkers. And in one event the NFB delegation was nearly shouted out because of their apparent lack of concern for public safety. Was it lack of concern? No, I think their dogma simply took first place over anything else, including the public safety of the elderly, dog walkers, cyclists and others.
Would a training center do this? Sounds like from what you're saying, probably not. But organizations based on dogma will put their dogma first.
I guess some people may justify us in the public safety sector to place public safety over anything else, and that indictment would be correct.
Oh, I didn't mean to say that the NFB made anyone do anything. You're right, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying "join our organization, or else."
But, as I've pondered this lately, I think I've finally figured out what it is about knowing people who are in the NFB who act the way I've described that unsettles me so much. It's the fact that, for an organization that teaches its members to be independent to the point of being aggressive about it at times, certain individual members sure do have a follower's mentality. For an organization of free thinkers, headstrong people, or what have you, they act like your standard batch of fundamentalists. Why?
Psychologically, I get it--insecure people will sometimes want to act bigger and badder than they are. But, as with the example I most recently described, that's not acting tough at all. that is not an image that springs to mind when I think of the word independence.
Chelsey, how severe would you say his deficit appeared to be? From my experience if you *look* disabled they will do more to accommodate you. Leo's example of having dyslexia was perfect. In the 70s the instructors may not have heard of it. I'm assuming Leo was articulate and appeared reasonably capable in other areas, which is why they called him lazy. If it doesn't look like a disability, their thinking tends to be that one can will it away.
Leo, when and where did you hear about the NFB protesting the installation of walk signals? I just did a quick Google search and from what I've read, their position is that audio signals should be used at intersections with overly complex traffic patterns but not at every single crossing. I also found an interesting article by the ACB which describes in great detail how modern signalized intersections work.
Actually, the braille instructor did ask students about conditions or possibilities of things like dyslexia. I told him that I was mildly dyslexic, and it was something he did take in to account when designing my goals for braille.
Honestly, there are a lot of bad apples that come out of NFB, and ACB membership. Though, I think this has as much to do with the people, as it does the organization. People that support most political parties can get just as dogmatically intrenched in their ways, as can the religious, and the non religious. Hell. Some of the people on this board have dogmatically stuck to their guns, despite any evidence presented. while others like Leo have been a lot more rational, even though they've chosen a side. I can respect that.
Voyager, your idea that if one looks more disabled, staff at NFB centers will likely help that person more, is sorely misguided.
if that had been the case, I would've had a ton of help, as I have two visible disabilities to contend with, rather than just one.
the reality, though, was that, if it was obvious that a person was working as hard as they could, if they were enthusiastic about learning, and if they were willing to accept that the ways in which they learned some things was incorrect, people were much more likely to provide assistance.
whereas, if it was obvious people were hard headed/set in their ways, as many on this thread are, those people would be a lot less likely to get help, at NFB centers, and probably anywhere else, for that matter.
Which is why as I've said before I most likely wouldn't last long at an NFB training center. I and only I decide what kind of cane I will and won't use and I'll be damned if I'm going to wear a blindfold whenI have no usable sight to cut off. Yes I have known NFB members who were balanced, reasonable folks. It's just the organization itself and its overarching philosophy that sets my teeth on edge.
My take on extremists is that they exist in more groups than the NFB and religious ones. Why is it that when there are a few fools who blow things out of proportion, this causes people to run away instead of ignoring it and giving it a chance. I have given the comparison of religious groups versus organizations (specifically the NFB) a lot of thought, and though I understand the reasoning and thoughts of why they might both be misleading, I still don't completely agree.
Religion follows a set of beliefs. The NFB follows the set of beliefs that coenside with the structure and discovery method. There are those of us who find religion to be misleading, but I find it to be a bit overblown when people find structure discovery to be ludicris. Unlike religion it does not provoke immoral, harmful, or otherwise misleading ideas that come up in religious historical books, that people overlook and try to weedle out. There is nothing harmful about asserting your independence, so long as you don't take the Extremist perspective and force it on people. The force and attempt to convert is a lot more apparent in religion, and I would even go as far as saying I believe past posts on this topic have been overly exaggerated. Outside of this place, I have never heard of people being forced to march at an NFB convention. I have met dozens upon dozens of people who either were at the last two conventions when I was there who were there for a variety of reasons and enjoyed it. I have also spoken to people who attended past Conventions who didn't have anything to say to that magnitude. The only marching that ever happened at the Conventions was when the Veterans were asked to walk down the aisle to be given a standing ovation, and what is wrong with that?
My point here is to try and get you to look past the nonsense that exists, because it is not just a single group problem. You do not have to get involved with the political hubbub which I sure as hell don't. I support the NFB because of how the training centers changed my outlook on life, because it has provided me with equipment that was easy to acquire and use, and because the Conventions give me the opportunity to meet new people and meet up with past friends I made at the Center. So don't be afraid to try something new because of how people act, and don't be afraid to laugh at them and shew them away.
Most of those who worked at the center at the time Ryan and myself were there Openly admitted structured discovery isn't a perfect platform. they admit there are other philosophies that may work for other people better. But, they do believe its the best path for them, because it gives a more realistic sense of what blind people are and are not capable of, with a little work. they don't force the dogma as it were. though, they do have rational arguments and reasons to back up why you're learning to do things as you are, how you're applying them compared to other methods out there, and yes... we've even talked about how to combine practices they don't teach. Like, working with speech and magnification simultaneously on a computer or mobile device. Could they expand their programs, probably. But, would the quality of training be as good. Probably not.
I've toured a lot of centers that teach you how to potentially use anything to do everything, but none of them are really good at teaching you how to do anything well. In part, because they only have time to teach the basics, and in part because the teachers never learn all the ins and outs themselves.
Its a lot like learning any other trade or skill. would you rather learn a lot of half assed methods of accomplishing various aspects of one task, or learn 1 to 3 methods so well that you can flawlessly carry out your task under nearly any condition?
this is the honest truth as far as I see it. I've met a lot of people who once were extremely sheltered, couldn't cook, couldn't clean, couldn't get where they needed to be unassisted, in any city they chose, for the first time before training.
In 8 out of ten cases i've seen those that went to a real NFB center were more competent by a large order of magnitude than others who went to other centers.
Is this true in all cases, no. But in the majority, eight out of ten, its proven to be true.
Say what you will about the methods. Don't ignore the fact they bring results.
While some practitioners of structured discovery hold an air of superiority, that is not at all what the methods are about. At heart, they're just another set of tools that give you a standard set of methods and operating procedures to handle specific situations the world throws at you blind. At heart, its nothing more than any other philosophy that encourages you to make the most of your abilities. Problem is, people have found the tools provided to be so useful they get preachy, or dogmatic. Its a lot like guide dog or cane users being dogmatic about their choices.
Leo, up to a point, I agree, maybe its not really ethical of them to take money as an NFB sponsored training center while making you attend the lectures. How ever, I do see some utility in taking people in to a convention or hotel environment.
this being the case, i've heard of many centers that take their students to either NFB or ACB conventions, but not both. I don't see that as being any more ethical. Maybe its a systemic problem?
Just there in mind that not all critiques on this thread has to do with the structure discovery method. The organization has come under scrutiny, that is true. Screw need tends to make an organization stronger, not weaker. The reason it looks like religious fundamentalism at times has a lot to do with the types of responses we are getting. So, for example, we have a religious person who claims those of us who question religion only want to be selfish evil beings. In the same manner, some people on this thread cling to the insecure position that people who question what's going on here are doing so because they want to be dependent, don't want to think about something new, or some other nonfalsifiable claim.
As to the claim that other agencies may send people to conventions, as an exercise in traveling independently to hotels and conventions, that's a bit of a strawman argument here. For example, they may only have the money or means or desire to send 21 such instance. Conventions are pretty expensive to attend, I would know having been on business plenty of times. The fact that they select a blind convention would match up to the fact that they are selecting something relevant to the training. Dad is extremely different, however, where you have a parent organization who is that political organization, requiring members of a training class to attend it's conventions exclusively. If this organization takes no government contracts, takes no government money, and has no official support from the government, then of course it is free to do as it wishes.
Critique of this behavior goes way beyond your blind centers, or dogmas about blind this or that. Trust me, in the Public Safety sector, we are constantly careful to not support a particular product over another. There are a lot of great tools out there, and since we take government money, we don't dare do that.
So, you have people who criticize this particular practice, you have people who criticize the centers themselves and how they operate, one of which I'm not technically since I've not been there, some of us who point out that being taught locally is probably superior. And you have people who challenge the particular organization in question, The NFB. Incidentally, the idea of being taught locally has a lot of American precedent. Way outside anything to do with being blind. Much of the structure around domestic relations between government and nongovernmental organizations has to do with local control to the extreme. This is just a fact that you cannot get around if you live in the United States.
Anyway, I'm just hoping people will see clearly to answer critiques on a more factual and logical level, and avoid such strawman arguments as independence or not being willing to learn something new. Ironically, for how this organization wants to be treated just like everybody else, in order to keep doing what they're doing, they need to explain to the rest of us why they are such a special case. Governmental and nongovernmental organizations relationships simply do not function this way under normal operating conditions. Personally, I would leave the critique of the structure discovery method at the feet of educator types, as I am simply unqualified to criticize on this issue. Some of this other stuff, not so much. I've had years of business and government experience. Doesn't mean I'm not wrong, but the strawmen get in the way of proving me so.
Ah, I never intended to make that point in to a straw man argument, more to point out that state centers pick their organizational biases as well, and make their students sit threw all the lectures, and the like.
Basically, i'm not denying your point, i'm just saying the NFB centers are not the only ones it applies to.
What I'd like to know is why so many blind people are talked into going to these...institutions.
Well, my guess would be that some people who are extremely sheltered are also naïve. So, when someone comes along who seems powerful, confident, and together, and they say, "we can help you to become independent" that person is already hooked. They want to follow in the footsteps of those who seem to have it all figured out.
Honestly, this isn't even a blind versus sighted thing. Lots of people have grown up sheltered, whether they're blind or not, and any strong opinion can collapse their fragile world of "what has always been."
I realize that, but it just seems to come out more in the blind world.
Look at how many people get tricked by those "I am a prince from nigeria and I can make you rich, if you just do this one thing for me." emails, or how many people to this day, who are sighted can't cook, or call a repairman to tackle the basics of fixing their houses, and say naivety is a problem for just blind people.
I've met some Rich people who grew up with everything being given or done for them. they went off to college, or got their own places while in college, and their lives, houses, and finances are in total shambles, because they've always had someone else doing the heavy lifting for them.
Yes yes of course. Sometimes a loos sight of that...I guess this nfb center shit grinds my gears, as they say.
I was a student at the center in Minneapolis. students who do not have any residual vision do not have to wear sleep shades. I was one of them.
I just stumbled across an interesting article that is relevant to this discussion.
https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm06/bm0608/bm060810.htm
I honestly don't object to much in this speech, but the one thing that I have to point out is that you can't say you're not dogmatic and then turn around and slam other organizations for what they do. That, I believe, is the main thing that anyone who can observe, who can think freely, will take away from it.
They start talking about how non-NFB training centers only use blindfolds (incidentally, I'm very glad that someone in the organization, at least, doesn't call them by that idiotic, politically correct term, sleepshades) for those who need them, or for those who would benefit. The same is said for long canes. But then, the person simply says, "we're not dogmatic, we're not forcing our training method on anyone." But then what happens? The speech simply fizzles out. No explanation is given. As demonstrated just a few paragraphs ago, however, they were just using case studies to make a solid point. Why couldn't they do that when trying to disprove all the claims made against them about dogmatism?
Could it be that they couldn't make an argument that wouldn't sound weak? Could it be that they know that is how certain people view them, and they know there's some truth to it?
GreenTurtle, this is just a political speech. Something like the State of the Union Address, or as we called it in college, the State of the Union Undressed.
It is also clearly directed at the Faithful, much as your early primary campaign speeches appeal to their radical base. I understand why such speeches exist, but as a independent type I don't see much use for them. They're trying to stir their own group in that speech. This is common, to stir the fire. Jesse Jackson did the same in the 2000 election, supporting Gore, and Bush got elected. You saw the Jesus Camp type scenarios from the Right in the 2012 election, and Obama got reelected.
This isn't to say they're never impactive, but they are not instructional or informative.
Ah, that makes sense. It was actually provided on one of the NFB's listservs, in response to a person who asked for information on the training centers. While that was far from the only response given, the fact that it was provided as a link of interest at all in that context is a bit questionable.
I am curious, though. I really want to know how it is that they can claim to not be dogmatic, and in the next breath say they're the truth, the way and the light. Political agendas or no, they want to teach independence. Right now, they're just preaching it. I'm not saying that the training centers don't at least, in part, put their money where their mouth is, but I'm hoping that one day there will be actual statistics to support the success rates they claim to have. Then, and only then, will I take what they say more seriously.
Yes, I realize that's a pipe dream, but hey, a person can hope, right?
Yoyu can't say yu're not dogmatic, you can only be not dogmatic, if that makes sense.
I've heard KKK people claim they weren't racist, too. People can claim anything they want. Doesn't make it credible or not credible.
A friend of mine, who is a dog user, who went to blind inc told me about how dog users were discriminated against. He later had a friend of his, who got hired at the center, was not treated like the others because of her dog. Now I've known this guy long enough to know that he doesn't ixagerate. So, the center should be investigated for discrimination in my view.
Based on the little bit I've seen on Blindinc.org
http://www.blindinc.org/mission.html
as an example, they are all about canes; they mention nothing about dogs. While I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and might be an oversight, but in the light of the above post....
Kate
they likely don't mention anything about dogs, for the simple fact that people aren't going there for guide dog training. they're going there to learn how to become proficient with the long white cane, and, if they have dogs, they're allowed to use them while they aren't in classes.
they allow students who have dogs, to bring their service animals to school with them, but as chelsea said, we couldn't work the dogs during class. the dogs stayed in crates for most of the day, but I took her outside at lunchtime to do her business. She did very well there.
the last poster brought up a good point, which is that, contrary to many people's beliefs, guide dogs do very well at NFB-based training centers, even though they aren't used all the time. they aren't lacking in love, or being cared for, in any way.
I was bringing up an issue of maltreatmint that I feel deserves investigation.
I guess my question is why you wouldn't be allowed to use your dog going to and from classes, etc.? Perhaps it's because I am a new guide dog user, I can't imagine crating my dog for 6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the length of time it would take to do training. Why would the dogs be intrusive? And if you had the mobility skills to get a dog, why would a centre not allow your dog to be with you during classes? I understand the mobility portion, but the rest...?
Kate
You probably won't get straight answers from apologists. Apologists just are there to defend the deity, in this case the NFB / its center.
I was told, and I'm not a dog user, that the dog user has to take their dog everywhere with them.
Leo brings up a good point. There have been posts from guide dog users on this site, of which most of the previous apologists are not, that say from experience that a handler and dog need to be together all day. Separation from your dog from 8-5 five days a week can't be healthy for your relationship, and I don't think someone who doesn't use a dog has the right to claim that "guide dogs do very well at NFB-based training centers."
I've seen firsthand how a friend's guide dog did during training, in addition to having conversations with her about it. I'm not saying that every single guide dog does well, though, just as every person doesn't do well.
That makes as much sense as me, a man, trying to tell women how they should handle their monthly cycle, based on what I heard other women say. Most people myself included would find me ludicrous to do so. I'll weigh in on what is or isn't good for a dog guide only after I have actually had one.
Speaking of apologist thinking: Green Turtle mentioned a speech in post 445.
Basically this is the same apologist tactic used by fundamentalist who claim that atheists believe in a deity.
No wonder some of us see the NFB centers and fundamentalist theism as so tightly linked. I'm sure there are different versions and different individuals, but just compare the apologetics being issued forth for their organization and centers. Only theist fundamentalists do this. Not even other weird people like Green Peace or PETA.
Yes, Leo, I have to admit that, the more NFB literature I see, the more it makes my stomach turn.
On the other hand, I personally know a couple of people who are guide dog users who claim that their dogs weren't negatively affected by being separated from their handlers during class time.
I'm skeptical about this, but I suppose that, if there really was an adverse effect, someone would have complained about that restrictive policy by now.
GT's last post said what I was getting at, which is that, if it's as huge of an issue as some of you assume, multiple people would kick and scream about it, till a compromise was made, or the policies were drastically changed.
GT, I'd ask your dog's school about this, rather than rely on the lack of complaints as
evidence.
Interestingly, saying nobody's complaining is the oldest tactic in the book employed by
spouse abusers, cults and certain fundamentalist sects. You and Kate are right to criticize
this. The theistic apologists will continue to talk testimonials or lack of complaints by
people who were immersed in the program. Obviously, your school will give you a far
better answer. One based on the science behind designing guide dogs, not just ideology.
Yet another case for separation of church and science.
In response to post 461 -
So, the pros and cons to a VA ran center?
I'm going to attend one this summer no matter what because it works with what I'm
trying to do after high school graduation.
I'm not going to a NFB center because of their ideas and I don't care for wood shop or
need Braille.
I also have a guy at LCB trying to talk me out of a VA center.
Really my only issue with the NFB (okay, my real biggist problem) is this bullshit "education" philosophy. You will note that the word education is in quotes.
The NFB does have folding canes available. I got one recently as a back-up in case the straight cane i have breaks, or I'm out traveling with the dog and I find myself disoriented. In that case, I heel the dog and use the cane for a bit. It's not practical to drag a 57-inch cane around in public while working with the dog. I've actually found the folding cane a little lighter than the straight one when I've had to use it.
Forgive me, but what's the benefit of a straight cane? I've used folded canes for 20 years, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it... perhaps someone can enlighten me?
Kate
being that a straight cane is longer than a folding one, that means it allows for more reaction time.
What are you talking about? A straight cane is no longer than a folding cane by default. It’s just … unable to be folded. You can buy folding and rigid canes in the same lengths.
Kate, some people argue that with each joint of a folding ccane, tactial feedback is lost.
How much tactile feedback do you really need in order to detect that there's a step in front of you? If you really want/need to know what the ground feels like at all times then you could always wear thinner shoes.
Or bend down and feel it. LOL.
But seriously, if you feel a bump in the path, use your better sense to react. Sheesh!
No no no. Go barefoot, people. Barefoot is awesome!
Although when around some areas you need to have some kind of shoes on so as not to step on glass.
But to be bare of foot is not a blind thing anyway.
Leo, being barefoot is awesome unless you're in the middle of a hot Texas summer.
Now I'm wondering what would happened if I showed up barefoot to class. Would they send me home?
You'd only show up barefoot to class in Minnesota if you wanted frostbite. lol seriously, winter up there is pretty crazy, but part of me still misses it.